Bolt vs Semi auto

[Blkhrt13]

So looking at the Ruger American and a few others I was wondering. What do you think Is the range or accuracy improvement in the bolt gun instead of the auto loader. The .223/556 version uses at mags and the 7.62x39 uses mini 30 mags. Can you expect longer range or more accuracy? I know some power is lost in cycling a bolt. Anyone done a side by side shoot?

 

[mavracer]

If you compare apples to apples there's not a huge difference. By apples to apples budget Ruger Bolt vs Budget Ruger AR and use similar grade of ammo.
I had a real nice heavy barrel Savage bolt 223 that I sold because it wouldn't out shoot my Recce AR build. The only somewhat pricy parts in my Recce are the White Oak barrel and the Larue trigger everything else is budget mil spec. It does have a Leupold scope and Nikon mount but you'll need glass for a bolt too.

 

[Mn Fats]

In every experience I've had, bolt actions have always reigned supreme for accuracy over autos.

Maybe I'm just not spending enough money on the autoloaders.

Edited to condense.

 

[Varminterror]

Dollar for dollar, a bolt gun will outshoot an auto. In the extreme for raw precision, bolt guns outshoot autos.

There is no appreciable influence on the AR DI action on velocity compared to a bolt gun, when the same barrel length is used.

 

[LonewolfMcquade]

Barrel has a little to do with it. I have an M&P AR 15 with a 16" barrel that is minute of man but not a tack driver. Another I have, has a 20" target barrel , dime groups using same ammo at 200yds.

My Ruger Precision bolt rifle & Armalite AR10T, both chambered in. 308, are about identical in accuracy.

My Ruger Ranch bolt action chambered in 7.62x39 is VERY accurate out to 400+ , much more so than the AK 47

 

[Slamfire]

Could not prove by me that a 223 bolt gun was noticeably more accurate than a 223 AR15 with a match barrel. I also saw some incredible groups shot with AR10's in 308 Win. These groups were shot by shooters who held their rifles and shot prone with a sling. The current rage is to shoot everything off a 600 lb concrete bench, front rest, and rear sand bags. Maybe on the bench someone will see a difference, but it will only be in rather artificial environment. Assuming the war you go to, or mountains you climb, are stocked with lots and lots of concrete benches. Then, all you have to do is place your front rest, and rear sand bags down on the bench, and you are ready to shoot bug holed groups.

You will never notice a velocity difference due to the gas system, between a bolt gun and gas rifle with the same barrel length. You will notice more velocity differences between barrel makes, some makers produce tighter barrels than others. Krieger comes to mind.

 

[greyling22]

I cannot say my bolt guns outshoot my semi autos. HOWEVER, I shoot the bolt guns better. less distracting gas blowback, port noise, buffer sproing etc going on.

 

[Mn Fats]

Could not prove by me that a 223 bolt gun was noticeably more accurate than a 223 AR15 with a match barrel.

Why does the AR get to have the match barrel?

 

[Varminterror]

Could not prove by me that a 223 bolt gun was noticeably more accurate than a 223 AR15 with a match barrel.

There are two problems with this:

1) This belies an exceptionally limited experience base. The typical Service Rifle hangs into ~1moa, and it’s ridiculously rare to see any of them print anything 1/2moa, let alone smaller. It’s an absolute cop out to point fingers at benchrest - FIELD shooting offers the same results, bolt guns can easily be built for less total cost to deliver better accuracy than autos. There are field matches and team matches held all over the country all year long, and gas guns run head to head with bolt guns, and the stickshifts come out on top.

2) Most Match barrels for Service or Match rifles cost more - alone - than the typical Ruger American, Rem ADL, or Savage - but rarely will the AR outshoot these budget bolt guns.

Dollar for dollar, greater accuracy is bought with fewer moving parts, fewer overall parts, more consistent lock up, and easier and more rigid action blueprinting (let alone ridiculously better triggers) by buying or building a bolt gun instead of an auto.

 

[Slamfire]

Why does the AR get the match barrel?

Because I shot NM AR15's, and they shot as well as the few 223 bolt gunners on the line.

Chrome lined barrels can shoot very well, but most of the chrome lined barrels on AR's have long throats, because they cater to the rock and roll types. Bolt guns tend to have the shorter throats of match barrels.

 

[0ne3]

Every one I see, in shooting matches uses a bolt gun. There must be a good reason.

 

[Slamfire]

1) This belies an exceptionally limited experience base. The typical Service Rifle hangs into ~1moa, and it’s ridiculously rare to see any of them print anything 1/2moa, let alone smaller. It’s an absolute cop out to point fingers at benchrest - FIELD shooting offers the same results, bolt guns can easily be built for less total cost to deliver better accuracy than autos.

Only talking about AR15's, a flat top AR15 with a match barrel can be built very affordably. I used two stage triggers, they provided excellent final releases and were durable. The thing is about 223 AR's is, they can be as loose as a goose and shoot sub MOA if the barrel is good and the chambering job is good.

A match job on a M1a was a much more expensive job. But accurate AR's are easy to build.

The current crop of affordable bolt guns are using some of the same concepts used in the AR15. That is the receiver is a simple aluminum tube, the bolt locks into a barrel extension. Lacking a gas system, they can be, and are, being made for less than an equivalent AR15. I don't have any, but they seem an excellent value for the money.

If your hunting situations require sub 1/2 MOA accuracy, maybe you are shooting at dragon flies.

 

[Slamfire]

Every one I see, in shooting matches uses a bolt gun. There must be a good reason.

What kind of matches?

The kind of matches that require rapid fire, and reloads, the gas guns took over. I was there in the transition from the classic 308 Win bolt gun to the "Space Gun" AR15. For the type of match that required standing, sitting rapid fire with a reload, prone rapid fire with a reload, and prone slowfire, the AR15 totally displaced the bolt gun.

It was due primarily due to the X counts a competitor would make at 200 and 300 yard rapid fires with a gas gun. You simply had more time to aim, given the sequences were ten shots in 60 seconds, or 70 seconds, and you had to make a reload. Bolt gunners would shoot five and five, gas gunners 2 and 8 rounds. The largest difference in scores was the standing stage. If you dropped 20 points there, you could not make it up later. Everyone was cleaning the rapids, and at 600 yards, almost everyone shot 198's to 200's regardless of bolt gun or gas gun.

A common piece of wisdom was, you won a Highpower match standing, and lost it prone slow fire.

 

[Space Ghost]

So looking at the Ruger American and a few others I was wondering. What do you think Is the range or accuracy improvement in the bolt gun instead of the auto loader. The .223/556 version uses at mags and the 7.62x39 uses mini 30 mags. Can you expect longer range or more accuracy? I know some power is lost in cycling a bolt. Anyone done a side by side shoot?

Everything depends on the shooter first, and foremost.

That said, the parts in the rifle have a lot to do with it. A quality built semi-auto can shoot as well, as a quality built bolt gun in theory. In practice, however, the simplicity of the bolt gun, and often the ergonomics of them make them a better choice for accuracy. YOU control the action / bolt, so you can be more consistent. Consistency is the key to accuracy. On average, and dollar for dollar, the bolt gun will win.

However...

NO... you cannot expect longer range. Not just because you have a bolt gun. The cartridge chosen, and the barrel it's shot from will determine that. For example, a bolt gun in .223 with a 16" barrel will fire the bullet slower than an AR with a 20" barrel, giving the edge to the AR as it will get a more complete powder burn. If you're shooting a short barreled AR, and a full size bolt gun, the bolt gun will give you the better velocity, and range. However, most people (if they're looking for long distance range) will buy/build a bolt gun with a barrel suited to the round, so it doesn't really matter. YOU pick your barrel length... in either.

NO... zero power is lost cycling the bolt. The gunpowder charge will give you pretty much the same velocity in either type of action, if the barrels are similar. What the action of a semi-auto CAN DO... is help to absorb recoil as it operates. With a bolt gun, the bolt does not move until YOU move it. It's locked into battery, and you won't be opening it with the barrel still pressurized, so all of the recoil will push back on the rifle itself... and not just the bolt, or bolt carrier group, and buffer spring.

 

[Newtosavage]

So looking at the Ruger American and a few others I was wondering. What do you think Is the range or accuracy improvement in the bolt gun instead of the auto loader. The .223/556 version uses at mags and the 7.62x39 uses mini 30 mags. Can you expect longer range or more accuracy? I know some power is lost in cycling a bolt. Anyone done a side by side shoot?

"some power is lost cycling a bolt?"

Come back when you have more experience with firearms. No offense, but your question is a very uniformed one.

 

[Mn Fats]

Because I shot NM AR15's, and they shot as well as the few 223 bolt gunners on the line.

I believe you, but you're still giving the AR a handicap by saying one has a match grade barrel vs a common bolt action that does not.

Because I shot NM AR15's, and they shot as well as the few 223 bolt gunners on the line.

Chrome lined barrels can shoot very well, but most of the chrome lined barrels on AR's have long throats, because they cater to the rock and roll types. Bolt guns tend to have the shorter throats of match barrels.

We're not talking chrome lined vs not. If your throat isn't ideal, than that's on the rifle or builder. We're talking auto vs bolt action, and pound for pound, dollar for dollar.

You're scewing it to your favor by saying things like match grade barrels in the AR. Anyone can do that. A bolt with a "match grade barrel" vs a Busmaster or Century AR-15. There.

 

[General Geoff]

"some power is lost cycling a bolt?"

Come back when you have more experience with firearms. No offense, but your question is a very uniformed one.

He's not uninformed at all. Some energy is lost to the gas system on an autoloading rifle. Extra work is being done, there's no such thing as a free lunch in physics and thermodynamics.

In practice the energy used to cycle the gas system is negligible, it might cost you 2 or 3 feet per second in muzzle velocity. Even the best hand-loaded match grade ammunition will have a wider variance from shot to shot than what is lost to an AR DI gas system.

 

[Ru4real]

The thing is about 223 AR's is, they can be as loose as a goose and shoot sub MOA if the barrel is good and the chambering job is good.

Agree. It takes more money (about 2 to 3x) to get there, accuracy wise. But worth it, IMO. Why spend more?

Here is a good reason. I shoot sub MOA 10 round groups in 30 seconds or less as an exercise for practice with my Match AR. Takes about 2 to 3x longer with my bolt gun for practice. So that’s the trade off.

Will that speed ever matter? Let’s hope not.

 

[FL-NC]

I'll say this- my RAR in 6.5 CM does its best to imitate a match grade rifle with sub MOA groups. My RAR ranch in 300 BLK with suppressor and 16" barrel is a tack driver too. IMO, some calibers are inherently more accurate than others, even when fired through similar rifles.

 

[Blkhrt13]

He's not uninformed at all. Some energy is lost to the gas system on an autoloading rifle. Extra work is being done, there's no such thing as a free lunch in physics and thermodynamics.

In practice the energy used to cycle the gas system is negligible, it might cost you 2 or 3 feet per second in muzzle velocity. Even the best hand-loaded match grade ammunition will have a wider variance from shot to shot than what is lost to an AR DI gas system.

This all day. It may be negligible but I assumed the laws stayed constant. I must be a big dummy to some.

 

[DukeConnor]

These groups were shot by shooters who held their rifles and shot prone with a sling. The current rage is to shoot everything off a 600 lb concrete bench, front rest, and rear sand bags. Maybe on the bench someone will see a difference, but it will only be in rather artificial environment. Assuming the war you go to, or mountains you climb, are stocked with lots and lots of concrete benches. Then, all you have to do is place your front rest, and rear sand bags down on the bench, and you are ready to shoot bug holed groups.
.

Some of us need help getting out of the prone position

 

[Blkhrt13]

Some of us need help getting out of the prone position

This me too. I’m a tear it up down there but I got to roll over to get up.

 

[jmr40]

You'd have a hard time proving a semi-auto is losing any velocity compared to a bolt rifle. Comparing 2 bolt rifles with equal length barrels and shooting ammo from the same box, muzzle velocity differences of 25-50 fps is the norm and as much as 100-150 fps isn't unheard of. It isn't unusual to see an individual 20" barrel shoot faster than some 22" or even 24" barrels. The theoretical 3-5 fps loss from a semi-auto sort' a gets lost in there.

Your typical $400-$500 bolt rifle will outshoot your typical sub-$1000 AR 9 times out of 10. But not all shooters are good enough to take advantage of the difference. Now if you get into the high-end AR's or some that have been accurized by a competent gunsmith an AR costing several thousand dollars will match or beat a common bolt rifle. Of course, if you move up to a dedicated target bolt rifle once again the bolt rifle wins. Assuming the shooter is good enough to take advantage of the difference.

FWIW, I had one of the Ruger Ranch rifles in 5.56. At the same time, I had one of the 223 Predators that takes AR magazines. The Ranch didn't shoot any better than any of my AR's and I let it go. The 223 Predator will beat any of my AR's. However, 2 of my AR's do come close.

 

[mavracer]

This all day. It may be negligible but I assumed the laws stayed constant. I must be a big dummy to some.

“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."

 

[Newtosavage]

This all day. It may be negligible but I assumed the laws stayed constant. I must be a big dummy to some.

Not a dummy. Rather, misplacing your concern.

But I get it. Some people like to split hairs for recreational purposes. I won't try to stop you.