Bolt vs Semi auto

[Slamfire]

I believe you, but you're still giving the AR a handicap by saying one has a match grade barrel vs a common bolt action that does not.

Barrels on bolt guns have vastly improved since my tang safety Ruger M77. That tube was the best barrel Ruger could buy for $15.00. As told to me by Wilson barrels, who were selling cheap barrels to Ruger back then. My Ruger tactical came with a Ruger cold swaged barrel, and it is outstanding. So, I take it more or less that a modern bolt gun will have a match grade barrel, but that AR's will have barrels that cater to the rock and roll crowd.

Something about bolt guns, they have to be bedded properly, and of course, a concentric chamber, and a firing pin strike in the middle of the primer to have the best accuracy. And that is not necessarily a given. Every factory rifle I have had, it did not shoot to its potential until I bedded the things and free floated the barrel. These groups, are the typical cherry picked groups.







I think this is very good for a featherweight.

 

[mavracer]

2) Most Match barrels for Service or Match rifles cost more - alone - than the typical Ruger American, Rem ADL, or Savage - but rarely will the AR outshoot these budget bolt guns.

My White Oak 16" SPR barrel is $275 I'll take an American Ranch in every caliber for that price please.

 

[Slamfire]

My White Oak 16" SPR barrel is $275 I'll take an American Ranch in every caliber for that price please.

John Holliger cannot compete on price against a factory that makes their own barrels at an industrial scale. John has to buy barrel blanks, such as the $425 Kriegers, from Krieger, and then he turns them and chambers them. I will say, a Holliger barrel will be right if installed by John, and his match rifles too.

When I shot my NM Armalite AR15 at Camp Perry, I remember meeting the fellow who won service rifle week with a stock box Armalite AR15. And I met the junior who won the President's 100 with a stock box Rock River AR15. These AR's were very reasonable priced, and if the Wilson barrel shot out, Wilson match barrels were relatively cheap. At least compared to a Krieger. And, a stock box, factory made AR was competitive with the rifles built by custom smiths and the service rifle team armorers.

It has been only in the last couple of years that very low priced bolt guns been available, I don't have one, I stick to the M700's and M70's. With some oddballs tossed in. I am sure the low priced rifles are a great value, but they are also designed and built to a price point. If in cold weather, when cycling the bolt, it binds against the plastic insert in side the receiver, don't complain. What did you expect for $275?. And, I have no idea the durability of the things. I talked to an ex Remington engineer. He said based on marketing research, they are not building these inexpensive rifles to last as long as the older M700's and M70's. Their customers don't shoot enough rounds to know the difference.

 

[C-grunt]

Semi autos have come a long way and are perfectly accurate for most shooting sports. I know a few guys that compete in PRS and other similar type matches with ARs. One is a nationally ranked and respected shooter who is sponsored by and shoots for a AR-10 company. His rifle costs probably close to 5000 bucks before optics and accessories. It's a half MOA gun. For shooting outside of benchrest type competitions, that's more than enough.

That being said, you can get a factory Bergara Premiere series rifle for a little under 2k that will shoot that. Hell my buddies 900 dollar HMR comes pretty close. If you buy a 4000 dollar precision bolt gun from GAP, APR, AI, etc... you're looking at 1/4 MOA territory.

The fact is that an action that is cycling, stripping a round out of a mag, feeding the round into the barrel, chambering, and locking in something like 1/20th of a second, isnt going to feed the round as smoothly and isnt going to lock up as consistently as a manually operated action will.

 

[jmorris]

So looking at the Ruger American and a few others I was wondering. What do you think Is the range or accuracy improvement in the bolt gun instead of the auto loader.

Depends on what the “few others” are. If one is a mini 14 and another a good AR, one is likely to be more accurate than the American and the other not as accurate.

In other words there are more variables than influence accuracy than just action type.

 

[mavracer]

John Holliger cannot compete on price against a factory that makes their own barrels at an industrial scale. John has to buy barrel blanks, such as the $425 Kriegers, from Krieger, and then he turns them and chambers them. I will say, a Holliger barrel will be right if installed by John, and his match rifles too.

When I shot my NM Armalite AR15 at Camp Perry, I remember meeting the fellow who won service rifle week with a stock box Armalite AR15. And I met the junior who won the President's 100 with a stock box Rock River AR15. These AR's were very reasonable priced, and if the Wilson barrel shot out, Wilson match barrels were relatively cheap. At least compared to a Krieger. And, a stock box, factory made AR was competitive with the rifles built by custom smiths and the service rifle team armorers.

It has been only in the last couple of years that very low priced bolt guns been available, I don't have one, I stick to the M700's and M70's. With some oddballs tossed in. I am sure the low priced rifles are a great value, but they are also designed and built to a price point. If in cold weather, when cycling the bolt, it binds against the plastic insert in side the receiver, don't complain. What did you expect for $275?. And, I have no idea the durability of the things. I talked to an ex Remington engineer. He said based on marketing research, they are not building these inexpensive rifles to last as long as the older M700's and M70's. Their customers don't shoot enough rounds to know the difference.

Please read my post again.
You totally missed my point.
Ruger American Ranches in 5.56 and 7.62 like OP mentioned are going for north of 600 and 800 dollars now.
As to your question my WOA barrel was actually like $230 on sale at Brownells when I got it and I expected a bit better than the $100 bargain bin barrels, what I got was a barrel that got me to sell my Savage heavy barreled bolt gun and question why spend more on an AR barrel.

 

[JDGray]

I concur with the AR-10 comment. I had one that would flat out shoot, but you had to be sure you had it pulled in nice and tight because of the stock. I prefer the bolt action however, you don't have to search for your brass!

 

[Hokkmike]

Of course the design and intended use of each weapon type is different to accord its benefit. Rapid fire vs. accuracy well enough to do the job.....

Are you shooting at a ground hog head out of the ground or four onrushing bad guys?

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Can you expect longer range or more accuracy?

Go to a benchrest, F class, or other long range precision shooting matches and see if you can find a semi auto on the line and you will know the answer to that question.

 

[PapaG]

Hard for me to accept but my cheap Bushmaster has outshot my Savage 111 and my Contender carbine, consistently and decidedly. I'm old school alone them dad gum automatic things ain't got the precision to keep up with a good bolt gun. LOL. 5/8-3/4" consistently on a calm day (and calm me)

 

[Archie]

I prefer bolt rifles for hunting, recreation and most everything excluding combat. (Not really sure about that.)

In many European nations and societies, hunters use a slower shooting weapon. Two barrel shotguns are used for hunting, arms carrying more rounds are considered 'ungentlemanly'. I agree with that concept (I really don't know why). I feel a bolt gun is more suited to my purposes than a semi-automatic.
As far as accuracy and useful power are concerned, I'm not a perfectionist. I expect the arm to fire on the target, but it a rabbit or a match target. I confess at my age my eyes are a bit iffy for even 600 yard NRA High Power competition. Power I expect to dispatch cleanly and effectively whatever I am stalking.

This is not exactly what was asked, but does show my opinions and likely the opinion of a significant percentage of others. Take it as you wish.

 

[mavracer]

Go to a benchrest, F class, or other long range precision shooting matches and see if you can find a semi auto on the line and you will know the answer to that question.

In the context of OP I see at least as many gas guns as I do Ruger Americans.

 

[Blkhrt13]

Okay let me be more honest. Part of why I am asking is I have a mini-30 and they get so pooped on I didn’t want to bring it up. People act like they can’t hit the broad side of a barn. I am looking at the Ruger American in 7.62x 39 because they use the same magazine and I like the compatibility. They keep going up in price which makes me think I may not want to buy one anymore. But a bolt gun you can load different bullets for plinking. Like a powder puff with a 32 long for rabbits. I have to be honest I can’t seem to get better than a 3 inch group at 100 yards but that is prolly a lack of practice and my own skills.

 

[Blkhrt13]

I wasn’t trying to start a flame war. But now I want to build an ar for precision. Lol.

 

[Bob Meyer]

I have an old Colt AR15 SP1 that will shoot about 3/4"-1" groups with a few select match loads. I have a Remington model 7 carbine in 223 that will shoot about 1/2" groups (both at 100 yards off sandbags) with select handloads. All in all I'd say that bolt guns tend to be a little more accurate, but a lot depends on the individual guns, and the effort put into load development. If you're just going to pull factory ammo off a LGS shelf I would guess both would be comparable at 2"-2 1/2".

 

[mavracer]

Okay let me be more honest. Part of why I am asking is I have a mini-30 and they get so pooped on I didn’t want to bring it up. People act like they can’t hit the broad side of a barn. I am looking at the Ruger American in 7.62x 39 because they use the same magazine and I like the compatibility. They keep going up in price which makes me think I may not want to buy one anymore. But a bolt gun you can load different bullets for plinking. Like a powder puff with a 32 long for rabbits. I have to be honest I can’t seem to get better than a 3 inch group at 100 yards but that is prolly a lack of practice and my own skills.

Yeah it's a lot harder to get a Mini to shoot I've had a 30 and played with a 14 a bit with bolt-ons ended up selling them still have a target version that I cut the barrel back to 16 and put a faux suppressor on it shoots ok at best about like a budget m4gery.
My American Ranch is in 300 Blackout and so far has shot very good, I think (especially having mags n ammo) a 7.62 American Ranch would be an awesome little gun, I've got a buddy that wants one too and yeah prices are nuts depending on just how much you're invested in 7.62 a 5.56 precision AR wouldn't be bad either.

 

[Blkhrt13]

Yeah it's a lot harder to get a Mini to shoot I've had a 30 and played with a 14 a bit with bolt-ons ended up selling them still have a target version that I cut the barrel back to 16 and put a faux suppressor on it shoots ok at best about like a budget m4gery.
My American Ranch is in 300 Blackout and so far has shot very good, I think (especially having mags n ammo) a 7.62 American Ranch would be an awesome little gun, I've got a buddy that wants one too and yeah prices are nuts depending on just how much you're invested in 7.62 a 5.56 precision AR wouldn't be bad either.

thing is other than 22lr all have my mini and an sks that’s all.

 

[Blkhrt13]

The mini 30 made after the 580 are supposed to be a 2 Moa rifle.

 

[mavracer]

thing is other than 22lr all have my mini and an sks that’s all.

Man that's tough in today's market, one thing I will say is an American Ranch 7.62 or a precision AR in 5.56 neither is going to be real accurate with cheap ammo, my AR that'll do well under 1 MOA with Fiocchi Exacta 77gr SMK is a 2+ MOA gun with green tip.
The American Ranches in 7.62 I see on GB are north of 800 and that would put together a purdy good AR.

 

[someguy2800]

The average ruger american will shoot better than the average AR15, but an AR15 can be built to shoot better than the average ruger american. To do so though will cost a lot of money or require a lot of luck.

 

[Slamfire]

Do posters understand the bolt actions required to win F Class matches? These are two popular actions:

The Barnard



No hole for a magazine, no magazine feed, single shot only



Extractor, but not ejector. The shooter retracts the bolt and with his finger, tips the case off the bolt face and out of the action. My buds who do this, love this. They spend hours in case preparation and they hate losing cases in the weeds!



massive sidewalls, and very symmetrical locking lug arrangement



This is a Panda Stoll




it is an aluminum action, I forget if the bolt locks into a steel barrel extension like the AR15, but the lugs, and the locking path is steel. Now what the designer did was create a wide and long stiff action, but kept the weight down.

No magazine, single shot only



I like the integral picatinny rail. Shoot a rifle long enough, and the screws that hold the typical sight bases on, will loosen up. Had that on all of my rifles, even with red loctite. What I have done is epoxy the bases to the receiver rings, but, its still glue, and will get loose eventually.



Extractor, no ejector!



the flutes look good, reduce weight. Since the load path is from the bolt face to the rear of the lugs, that middle section of the bolt can be lightened in front locking designs.



So, if you are one of those who has to have a 1/4 MOA rifle, there are tradeoffs. The things are heavy, you cannot hold them, they are placed on sandbags and rests. They are faster to load than a muzzle loader, but don't expect a quick second or third shot. I do expect that the sport will change to where the rifle is on some electro servo mechanism that uses a laser to align on the target, and the "shooter" taps his cell phone screen to fire the thing. Shooters will no longer have to hold their rifles, now they hover, but they are touching the trigger. Technology will eliminate that. I expect they will still have to load the things, but the screen tapper does not have to even be on the firing line.

Don't forget the 600 lb concrete benches, and all the assorted gear. Maybe you can pack it all in that 760 horsepower car you have to have to drive to the grocery store.

I am in awe of those Olympic biathlon skiers. Those biathlon skiers were on the track for over an hour, and yet had to shoot at targets prone, and offhand. The standing target is 4.5 inches in diameter at 50 meters. I really respect the physical conditioning of anyone who can hit five out five of those targets and ski 12 miles as fast as they can. Those who only shoot bench rest, don't have to worry about a pulse ruining their aim.

Maybe in time, all shooting will de evolve to rifles like this. Big ass hunks of equipment, brought out by a team, set up on benches, and wonderfully accurate, because no human interaction beyond touching the trigger is required.



The above rifle shot some amazing thousand yard group. Kudo's to the guy who did it.

 

[d2wing]

Okay let me be more honest. Part of why I am asking is I have a mini-30 and they get so pooped on I didn’t want to bring it up. People act like they can’t hit the broad side of a barn. I am looking at the Ruger American in 7.62x 39 because they use the same magazine and I like the compatibility. They keep going up in price which makes me think I may not want to buy one anymore. But a bolt gun you can load different bullets for plinking. Like a powder puff with a 32 long for rabbits. I have to be honest I can’t seem to get better than a 3 inch group at 100 yards but that is prolly a lack of practice and my own skills.

The Ruger American rifle will be vastly more accurate than either a Mini-30 or SKS. That would be a fine rifle. The cartridge will not be very long range in any rifle but fine for shorter range use. As far as an AR, I have put together Del-ton kits that are good quality and shoot sub-moa. I hope this helps.

 

[SwampWolf]

"some power is lost cycling a bolt?"

Come back when you have more experience with firearms. No offense, but your question is a very uniformed one.

"Technically" speaking, his question has merit; practically speaking, in every sense of the word, any difference is moot. Whether you intended it or not, I think your unwarranted condescension was offensive.

 

[mavracer]

They spend hours in case preparation and they hate losing cases in the weeds!

I think people understand this even less than what goes into the rifles.

 

[SwampWolf]

In many European nations and societies, hunters use a slower shooting weapon. Two barrel shotguns are used for hunting, arms carrying more rounds are considered 'ungentlemanly'. I agree with that concept (I really don't know why).

I really don't know why either. Though I have a Merkel s/s shotgun, a semi-auto shotgun the shoots only two shots and a couple of single-shot rifles, my friends still consider me a gentleman, even when I brandish my auto-loaders and six-shooters. Whereas Europeans might consider me "ungentlemanly", I consider them to be insufferable snobs who, in some cases, make it illegal for the common folk to possess any sort of gun, let alone something as evil as an AR-15. I'm glad I live here like a savage proletariat than live there like a pretentious bourgeois gentleman (oops, I mean "gentleperson").