Oleg Volk
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How are zero-delay hand genades marked by different armies to distinguish them from the real thing?
Booby-trapped hand grenades
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Third_Rail
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I wasn't aware of such a thing. What a smart idea... if you're not the one to test them.
EDIT: Did a bit of Googling...
Preacherman
Member
When we found terrorist arms dumps, we didn't mark them at all... just swapped out every third grenade fuse for an instantaneous detonator. After a few terrorists came to sticky ends, they would abandon the lot!
Same applied to other munitions. Take every tenth round, pull the bullet, remove the propellant and insert industrial dynamite - then re-insert the bullet, put back in magazine or belt, and await results. Ever seen a receiver that's fired a round like that? Not pretty...
(Oh - and do make sure - VERY sure - to warn your own forces never, EVER to use any captured munitions, because your experiments might be to their detriment!
)
Same applied to other munitions. Take every tenth round, pull the bullet, remove the propellant and insert industrial dynamite - then re-insert the bullet, put back in magazine or belt, and await results. Ever seen a receiver that's fired a round like that? Not pretty...
(Oh - and do make sure - VERY sure - to warn your own forces never, EVER to use any captured munitions, because your experiments might be to their detriment!
)Third_Rail
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Smart smart smart.... I wonder if our boys in Iraq are doing the same? Man, I sure hope so.... 
RevDisk
Member
They aren't, body marking wise. Sorta defeats the purpose. It's the same grenade (usually), just different fuse.
Generally, no. All weapons are supposed to be policed up and usually destroyed. Some are re-issued to the Iraqi forces.
I believe Germans in WW2 had two blue colors for the pull-cords -- one was normal, one was "instant."
In the time before color photography had really caught on, that might have been good enough...
In the time before color photography had really caught on, that might have been good enough...
max popenker
Member
The most entertaining video clip that i've seen was that filmed by Chechen terrorists when testing a newly obtained recoilless rifle. The RR was apparently bought from some "bad" Russian army officer, who indeed turned not so bad.
On the video tape, one of the bearded Chechchen 'fighters' loaded the RR, screamed 'Allah Akbar' and pulled the cord... Bang... and he's blown into pieces along with RR - apparently, the ammo was booby-trapped by the 'seller'.
The C4-filled rifle and MG ammo also reportedly has been sold many times to such 'rebels' by similar 'bad' Russian army officers.
What can i say - that's a fair trade.
On the video tape, one of the bearded Chechchen 'fighters' loaded the RR, screamed 'Allah Akbar' and pulled the cord... Bang... and he's blown into pieces along with RR - apparently, the ammo was booby-trapped by the 'seller'.
The C4-filled rifle and MG ammo also reportedly has been sold many times to such 'rebels' by similar 'bad' Russian army officers.
What can i say - that's a fair trade.
jefnvk
Member
My uncle, who was over in Iraq, told me that no one was allowed to fire anything captured until the armorers had a llok at. Seems the Iraqis had a habit of doing that very thing, drilling holes in the reciever under the handguards, etc.
myrockfight
Member
-Preacherman
I read about that in a book written by someone who was in Special Ops. He also said that he came across an North Vietnamese guy who had a bolt that flew up in his face and killed him. He made the remark wondering if it was one of their "reworked" rounds.
He also noted that the North Vietnamese were so confused with the situation, that they were questioning the ammunition suppliers (Chinese and Russians? IIRC). Planting bad munitions created more bad reprecussions the enemy than they originally expected - happily, of course. PsyOps are great when they are working in your favor!
Anyone know the source (s)? I don't have my extensive collection of books with me at this moment.
Older high school friend told me of that trick used in Viet Nam....
Pull the bullets, dump powder and then refill cases with either Hercules (Now Alliant Powders) Unique or Bullseye. I don't remember which one he said they used, but it most resembled the original powder. Would make for about a 5x to 8x overcharge....got real interesting for the shooter.
Pull the bullets, dump powder and then refill cases with either Hercules (Now Alliant Powders) Unique or Bullseye. I don't remember which one he said they used, but it most resembled the original powder. Would make for about a 5x to 8x overcharge....got real interesting for the shooter.
280PLUS
Member
I have two titles in mind, one of which I believe has some stories related to "salting" ammo dumps and IRRC a story about a junior officer who thought he could throw a 0 delay grenade away before it went off. Lost the arm trying. There was reference to "What part of "instantaneous" didn't he understand"
Either "Walking Point" by James Watson or "Dear Mom" by Joseph Ward. I skimmed through both but could not find it. Not enough time right now.
I'm leaning toward "Dear Mom" but I'm not sure.
HankB
Member
I would hope that when our troops in Iraq find an unattended arms cache, that at least sometimes they booby trap it. This strikes me as a most excellent idea.
But it wouldn't surprise me if some politically correct REMF issued orders prohibiting this.
But it wouldn't surprise me if some politically correct REMF issued orders prohibiting this.
Rabid Rabbit
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IIRC my opfor training (20 years ago) correctly the russian grenades had a number stamped on the spoon or the hammerfor the number of seconds delay.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
I read that the French supplied some zero-delay grenades and explosive-loaded rifle ammunition to a terrorist group in Algeria(?)...not long after, two terrorists blew themselves up while trying to throw grenades into a crowded marketplace...
Bob R
Member
Years ago in Djoubiti (before the current buildup of US troops), I had the opportunity to hang out with a couple of French Foreign Legionaires from the US.
At the time (and probably still so), Djoubiti was a haven for trafficking in illegal arms. They did the same that other countries did. Whenever they found people with grenades, rifles, whatever, they would sabotage a few of them so they would maim or kill the user and leave the rest.
They said salting a case of grenades with a few with instant fuses helped keep the sale of them down. They did the same to ammo, and weapons.
As a side note, it seemed the favorite pastime of the legionaires in Djoubiti was to try to pick fights with the regular frech army people stationed there. Seldom did the french rise to the challenge, they sat there and allowed themselve to be insulted and degraded by the legionaires.
It was also home to the "BEST" crepe restaurant I have ever eaten at.
bob
At the time (and probably still so), Djoubiti was a haven for trafficking in illegal arms. They did the same that other countries did. Whenever they found people with grenades, rifles, whatever, they would sabotage a few of them so they would maim or kill the user and leave the rest.
They said salting a case of grenades with a few with instant fuses helped keep the sale of them down. They did the same to ammo, and weapons.
As a side note, it seemed the favorite pastime of the legionaires in Djoubiti was to try to pick fights with the regular frech army people stationed there. Seldom did the french rise to the challenge, they sat there and allowed themselve to be insulted and degraded by the legionaires.
It was also home to the "BEST" crepe restaurant I have ever eaten at.
bob
Double Maduro
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There is also the story about the gang bangers in LA a couple years ago. Seems these Einstiens stole some smoke grenades and decided to make real ones out of them by substituting gunpowder for the smoke agent.
Got 'em all fixed up and went cruising, saw some people they didn't like, pulled the pin, well you know the rest....
DM
Got 'em all fixed up and went cruising, saw some people they didn't like, pulled the pin, well you know the rest....
DM
critter
Member
Rebar, I have a friend who is a Viet Nam vet who said that was common practice. They also, then, added a little C-4 for 'spice' and those 'enhanced' grenades were used to set booby traps. A pulled pin, a little monofilament and an 'enhanced' grenade ruined a lot of VC's day according to him.
english kanigit
Member
280, you are indeed thinking of the book Walking Point. Very, very good read.
If I remember right, he even wrote about planting mortar rounds to the same effect. Apparently, after lacing a cache with the bogus mortars, it only took a few nights for enemy mortars to all but stop firing. Something about finding a mortar tube peeled back like a banana...
If I remember right, he even wrote about planting mortar rounds to the same effect. Apparently, after lacing a cache with the bogus mortars, it only took a few nights for enemy mortars to all but stop firing. Something about finding a mortar tube peeled back like a banana...
280PLUS
Member
Thanks Kanigit,
I'll try and find it again and post the excerpt.
Dear Mom was a good one too.
Have you read Ion Idriess' "The Desert Column"?
That one will bring the realities of war home to you.
280
I'll try and find it again and post the excerpt.
Dear Mom was a good one too.
Have you read Ion Idriess' "The Desert Column"?
That one will bring the realities of war home to you.
280
DMK
Member
I think the bigest problem with this today is you have many allies using the same weapons and ammo as your enemies. There are a lot of good guys operating AKs, RPKs, RPGs, etc in Iraq and Afganistan.
Back in the time of the Korean and SEA conflicts most everyone on your side used NATO weapons and the enemies almost always used Warsaw Pact weapons.
280PLUS
Member
Found it!
There's actually 2 sections. One on hand grenades and one on salting ammo caches.
From "Walking Point" By James Watson pp181-182
"Fragmentation grenades worked so well as improvised booby traps that we had some M26 grenades specially made just for that use. The special M26 grenade looked exactly like a standard grenade except that there was no delay element in the fuze. When the pin was pulled and the spoon released the grenade went off. Carefully packaged and marked so that they were not confused with our regular munitions, the zero delay grenades were being used in Vitenam by mid-1968."
"Besides being useful as a boobytrap, a zero delay grenade could be left behind, "accidentally" dropped in an area where only the VC could find it. But in spite of everthing we did nothing is completely foolproof. Never underestimate a fool."
Next part covers how they would booby trap sensors with the grenades to protect them from being captured. Later they would have to disarm and remove the sensors. They would attach a cord to the sensor and pull it away from the grenade at a safe distance and the grenade was supposed to detonate harmlessly.
"Instead of falling away like the earlier grenades, the third grenade stuck to the mud on the sensor and wouldn't come off. When the sensor was pulled on board the PBR, the grenade came along with it. The RIVDIV (River Division) lieutenant who was on the PBR pulled the grenade free of the sensor, keeping the spoon secured in his hand. All that had to be done now was secure the spoon somehow, perhaps with a pin taken from a smoke grenade, and everything would have been all right. This was where the fool part of "foolproof" came into play.
That lieutenant knew the grenade had a zero delay fuze on it. Instead of doing the smart thing, he figured he could throw the grenade far enough away so that when it went off, it wouldn't hurt anyone. I wonder what part of "zero delay" that officer didn't understand.
As soon as the grenade left the lieutenant's hand, the spoon came up and the grenade went off. Four men, including one SEAL, were seriously wounded by the explosion. Another four men, including a Vietnamese LDNN, were slightly wounded. The SEAL who was badly injured had to be medevaced out and eventually lost an eye from his injuries. And the lieutenant who had caused the incident was injured badly, losing a portion of his arm. When that officer was visited by some SEALs later, his comment to them was, "If I had only thrown it harder."
It didn't matter how hard a zero delay grenade was thrown; it would go off as soon as it left your hand. But some guys just never learn"
That's all I can do right now, I'll try to post the part about salting ammo tommorrow. It's a bit longer.
There's actually 2 sections. One on hand grenades and one on salting ammo caches.
From "Walking Point" By James Watson pp181-182
"Fragmentation grenades worked so well as improvised booby traps that we had some M26 grenades specially made just for that use. The special M26 grenade looked exactly like a standard grenade except that there was no delay element in the fuze. When the pin was pulled and the spoon released the grenade went off. Carefully packaged and marked so that they were not confused with our regular munitions, the zero delay grenades were being used in Vitenam by mid-1968."
"Besides being useful as a boobytrap, a zero delay grenade could be left behind, "accidentally" dropped in an area where only the VC could find it. But in spite of everthing we did nothing is completely foolproof. Never underestimate a fool."
Next part covers how they would booby trap sensors with the grenades to protect them from being captured. Later they would have to disarm and remove the sensors. They would attach a cord to the sensor and pull it away from the grenade at a safe distance and the grenade was supposed to detonate harmlessly.
"Instead of falling away like the earlier grenades, the third grenade stuck to the mud on the sensor and wouldn't come off. When the sensor was pulled on board the PBR, the grenade came along with it. The RIVDIV (River Division) lieutenant who was on the PBR pulled the grenade free of the sensor, keeping the spoon secured in his hand. All that had to be done now was secure the spoon somehow, perhaps with a pin taken from a smoke grenade, and everything would have been all right. This was where the fool part of "foolproof" came into play.
That lieutenant knew the grenade had a zero delay fuze on it. Instead of doing the smart thing, he figured he could throw the grenade far enough away so that when it went off, it wouldn't hurt anyone. I wonder what part of "zero delay" that officer didn't understand.
As soon as the grenade left the lieutenant's hand, the spoon came up and the grenade went off. Four men, including one SEAL, were seriously wounded by the explosion. Another four men, including a Vietnamese LDNN, were slightly wounded. The SEAL who was badly injured had to be medevaced out and eventually lost an eye from his injuries. And the lieutenant who had caused the incident was injured badly, losing a portion of his arm. When that officer was visited by some SEALs later, his comment to them was, "If I had only thrown it harder."
It didn't matter how hard a zero delay grenade was thrown; it would go off as soon as it left your hand. But some guys just never learn"
That's all I can do right now, I'll try to post the part about salting ammo tommorrow. It's a bit longer.
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