Border politics and racism

[Fletchette]

I just watched The Factor on Fox; O'Reilly and Pat Buchanan talked about our porous borders. O'Reilly told Buchanan that he didn't think the Bush administration would put the National Guard on the border because it would infuriate the Hispanic vote. All this got me thinking...

The reason many people/businesses don't want stricter border control is because they want cheap labor. But an illegal alien is not protected by labor laws, OSHA, protection from employer abuse, etc. Given the despiration of these workers, they have no choice. In essence, the use of illegal aliens as workers is tantamount to semi-slavery.

It would seem to me that the Hispanic vote would rather want easier *legal* immigration laws rather than a hypocritical policy of enforcing some laws and ignoring others.

If there is a demand for cheaper labor, then the Government should lower the minimum wage (or abolish it) and let market forces take it's course. Why should *some* Americans have their wages artificially raised while others (immigrants) work for less?

The current situation appears untenable and cannot go on forever.

Are there any Congress representatives sponsoring bills to fix this, or are we just going to merrily go along until someone slips a nuke into Texas?

 

[Standing Wolf]

...are we just going to merrily go along until someone slips a nuke into Texas?

According to my old pal Jim, lessons are repeated until they're mastered. We obviously haven't learned a great deal from the attacks by Islamic terrorist savages on September 11, 2001.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Are there any Congress representatives sponsoring bills to fix this, or are we just going to merrily go along until someone slips a nuke into Texas?

The latter.

Don't forget, much of the Hispanic vote is comprised of illegals, and many of the legals have friends or relatives who are illegal. Sure they would rather be able to come here legally, but the botom line is that they want to come here.

 

[Fletchette]

The latter.

Don't forget, much of the Hispanic vote is comprised of illegals, and many of the legals have friends or relatives who are illegal. Sure they would rather be able to come here legally, but the botom line is that they want to come here.

I have no problem with them coming here. If I were born in another country I'd do anything to get here too! But I would think it would be better to come here and be a full-fledged citizen rather than a semi-slave. Why doesn't the Hispanic vote lobby to make *legal* immigration easier? Instead, they seem to be supporting policy that makes them second-class citizens.

 

[hkOrion]

Tom Tancredo from Colorado is spearheading some border control policies (VERY large fence and national guard troops). Then there's always the ranchers along the border. This should be a hot button issue coming up.

hkOrion

 

[Atticus]

We need to create jobs for them....border guard jobs. Create a new wave of US citizen "haves" who are paid well to keep out the "have- nots".

 

[Fletchette]

How much of the border land is private property? Even if the feds refuse to enforce the border I would think that property owners should still be able to deter trespassers.

Or would defending one's Property Rights be "taking the Law into our own hands"?

 

[El Tejon]

Fletch, I would anticipate several pieces of legislation being introduced in the new Congress.

Without immigration, our economy suffers terribly. Without security, our fellow citizens may be hurt terribly. Always a balance.

 

[Langenator]

Part of President Bush's proposed immigration plan includes temporary worker visas. (Not sure of the duration, how renewable they would be, whether the time would count toward establishing citizenship, etc.) That's the good part of the plan (assuming, of course, that even folks applying for one of these would be security screened at the local US consulate/embassy.)

The bad part is the proposed amnesty for illegals already in the country who have jobs.

I'm sorry, but they broke the law. They want a temp visa they can go back and stand in line like everyone else.

 

[cuchulainn]

Given the despiration of these workers, they have no choice. In essence, the use of illegal aliens as workers is tantamount to semi-slavery.

They have a choice, and from their perspective, it's not a bad choice. They can stay at home and remain impoverished or they can come to America and make more in a month than their entire village does in a year -- and I doubt they give a rodent's posterior about how they are being "persecuted" by poor application of OSHA regulations or lack of insurance that they wouldn't have at home anyway.

When you're well fed and plump, a stale crust of bread seems an insult. When you're starving, that same crust of bread is a God-send. Working illegally in the U.S. is more than that crust of bread for them.

 

[Cool Hand Luke 22:36]

Are there any Congress representatives sponsoring bills to fix this, or are we just going to merrily go along until someone slips a nuke into Texas?

No, legislation will not be passed to fix this problem, and Yes, we will do exactly that: go merrily along untill several US cities are nuked.

Al Queda is most likely waiting untill they have at least 3 nuclear bombs in place.

 

[Waitone]

IIRC 5 bills have been filed in congress to fix the immigration problems. Bush in December 2003 made his come hither speech which immediately raised the number of border crossers.

There is no issue in play in the US right now more divisive that criminal aliens and immigration policy. The great divide is between the ruling class (composed of politicians, bureaucrats, one-world blissninnies, and corporate weenies) and the taxpaying class (composed of those who actually pay governmental bills and those who should be paying those bills). Surveys I've seen show as much as 80% of of the taxpaying class wants something done while something llike only 20% of the ruling class sees a problem.

Bush and Democrats both suck up to the so-called hispanic vote and neither side is worried about niceties like legal voting. Meanwhile, intel informs us islamofascist goons want to move WMD over the borders.

States are now beginning to fight back over the unfunded mandates congress has created to provide welfare benefits to criminal aliens. Arizona pass a Prop 200 which IIRC basically cuts off welfare benefits to criminal aliens.

I predict a robust debate over immigration reform which will expose the the divide. I think the reason Bush hasn't shut down the debate over Specter is because he wants to see how big the insurrection is. He does not want to pitch criminal alien reform only to have it blown away by popular resistance.

 

[DRZinn]

Are there any Congress representatives sponsoring bills to fix this, or are we just going to merrily go along until someone slips a nuke into Texas?

Or San Diego, closest major city to the border....

 

[ahenry]

Before everybody goes off on how Bush is sucking up to the Hispanic vote by getting into bed with illegal aliens, have you heard of the Expedited Removal program Bush instituted?

 

[Dave R]

Slavery?

In essence, the use of illegal aliens as workers is tantamount to semi-slavery.

Not nearly the same. The thing that defines slavery is compulsion, or lack of choice. Except for a tragic few, illegals work where they work by choice.

And, as pointed out by cuchalain, its not a bad choice.

And to answer the original question, yes, we're apparently going to go blindly along until another terrorist event hits us. I pray its not nuke(s).

If I were a landowner along the border, I'd be very happy to have the Gov't put up a big fence.

And I'll re-ask the question--can landowners on the border enforce their property rights, that is, prevent tresspassing, or would they run into PC trouble if they do?

 

[Deavis]

I went to school with someone who has a ranch on the border. At no time are they ever without a rifle within quick reach while out on the ranch. There have been ranchers shot at and killed by people crossing the border but it isn't your PC stereotypical "hard-working just want a job" alien. It is the guys who are leading the drug mules, read human pack animals, across and they are not afraid to pop a few ranchers to get their product over here. According to her this is a serious issue for ranchers, much more serious than people trying to simply sneak in for work and not be caught.

 

[HankB]

Even if the feds refuse to enforce the border I would think that property owners should still be able to deter trespassers.

Some ranchers have tried that. They have gotten in hot water for some BS charges related to "violating the illegal aliens' civil rights."

 

[ahenry]

And to answer the original question, yes, we're apparently going to go blindly along until another terrorist event hits us. I pray its not nuke(s).

I’ll ask again; Do you even know anything about the Expedited Removal program Bush instituted?

 

[Fletchette]

Loaded Question (sorry about the pun)

I went to school with someone who has a ranch on the border. At no time are they ever without a rifle within quick reach while out on the ranch. There have been ranchers shot at and killed by people crossing the border but it isn't your PC stereotypical "hard-working just want a job" alien. It is the guys who are leading the drug mules, read human pack animals, across and they are not afraid to pop a few ranchers to get their product over here. According to her this is a serious issue for ranchers, much more serious than people trying to simply sneak in for work and not be caught.

So, what about forming a Citizens' group to enforce Property Rights? No open/concealed law problem with the consent of the property owner. It would be hard for the Feds to prosecute a clearly legal private action, especially if it is "anti-drug" smuggling. The Guardian Angels do it, albeit without weapons (but they are on public property).

At the very least when the media got ahold of it then the whole issue of unsecure borders would have to be addressed.

 

[Fletchette]

I’ll ask again; Do you even know anything about the Expedited Removal program Bush instituted?

All I know is that Border Guards can venture farther north to arrest illegals. I don't know if there is adequate funding for more Border Guards to patrol their increased jurisdiction (but I have a guess). I do not think it is wise to send Border Guards from the border to northern destinations, thereby opening up still more hole in the porous border. We need MORE Border Guards, or a Citizen's group, or a big fence, or all three, but unfunded laws are simply pieces of paper.

 

[fjolnirsson]

So, what about forming a Citizens' group to enforce Property Rights? No open/concealed law problem with the consent of the property owner. It would be hard for the Feds to prosecute a clearly legal private action, especially if it is "anti-drug" smuggling. The Guardian Angels do it, albeit without weapons (but they are on public property).

I don't know a lot about them, but I have heard of a group called ranch rescue doing exactly that. From what I understand, they've been harrassed pretty heavily by government officials for" violating civil rights" of illegals caught trespassing. I learned of them on a website which suddenly ceased to exist several months ago. I would post a link to the ranch rescue site, but it too, has ceased to exist.

Coincidence? You decide......

 

[flatrock]

I'm sorry, but they broke the law. They want a temp visa they can go back and stand in line like everyone else.

I understand and somewhat agree with the principle behind this.

However, in this perticular situation I disagree.

Yes, they have broken immigration law. They've broken a law that is consistently ignored, and which the enforcement of is aggressively blocked by local governments in many areas.

If we don't respect our own laws, why should they?

These people have come to our country with the understanding that while the law is on the books, it's not really enforced. By not enforcing the laws we've put ourselves in a position where enforcing it strictly now will tear appart families and severely punish people who's only crime is breaking a law that our own government hasn't taken seriously.

Yes they broke the law. But enforcing the law now will create a huge mess. Not only that, but in reality, we don't have the resources to enforce the law effectively.

With millions of illegal immigrants currently in our country, how can we reasonably expect that we can track the majority of them down and deport them?

We can't, and any reform that isn't implementable isn't going to fix the problem.

As a country, we need to face reality on the illegal immigrant issue. If we want to reduce the problem down to a managable level, we need to make it so those who are willing and able to work, and are not criminals other than their immigrations violations, come forward on their own.

If they come forward to get documented that allows the people who enforce immigrations laws the ability to concentrate on the real problems.

Bush's plans aren't going to make everyone happy. But they're the only plans I've seen that are practical and implementable.

As long as people insist that we have to deport every immigrant that entered the country illegally under current laws, the system will not be reformed. The scope of that task is simply too large after all the years of ignoring the immigration laws.

 

[Penforhire]

Unfortunately I think the problem can continue indefinitely. It has been "tenable" for decades. Aside from the terrorist threat what makes anyone think circumstances have changed?

My personal opinion is we're entitled to control our borders and we should do so with an iron grip (or wall). It is not closing the gate after the horse is gone because there are millions more horses in that barn continuing to cross over.

And enforcement of labor laws to is not so hard to do but I understand the business-owner resistance. You don't need to track down illegals if you can deny them most employment avenues. The great urge to come live in America will subside.

 

[Ironbarr]

Across the years I've wondered from time to time if annexing Mexico might be the thing to do, and - after cleaning up the politics, criminal and economic world (fifty years or so) - statehood...... maybe.

Strange, but I heard Boortz recently mention the same thing (primarily, tongue-in-cheek) - albeit done by Marines.

Ideas?

-Andy

 

[wingman]

Just from the view of numbers how many can we take in, can we as a nation
provide jobs, medical care for the world, as is illegals provide a work pool for
the wealth the taxpayer must pay higher taxes to build schools, hospitals, etc. I have read Texas would now need to build one school per day to stay
even with the numbers coming in. The illegals in turn send much of there money to Mexico. It is not the 1800's the world's population is growing very
fast we will need to in the very near future face the facts we need to slow
immigration, we cannot continue to sent our manufacturing jobs to other
countries while importing 3th world folks with perhaps a 6th grade education. :banghead: