Border politics and racism

[DRZinn]

Here's my viewpoint, as a closed-border libertarian. If we make them 100% ineligible for any and all government benefits, including education and police protection (not that the cops would always ask, but if it happens to come out, SOL), the rates would drop. And they'd be eligible for emergency-room care, but as soon as they were in stable condition they'd be processed for deportation.

A free state does not exist in a vacuum. And if the bordering states are like Mexico, the free state will not be free for long.

 

[ahenry]

Fletchette,

All I know is that Border Guards can venture farther north to arrest illegals.

The arrest authority of a Border Patrol Agent has always extended throughout the entire United States. They have always had the authority to arrest illegal aliens anywhere within the United States.

Fjolnirsson,

From what I understand, they've been harrassed pretty heavily by government officials for" violating civil rights" of illegals caught trespassing.

No they haven’t been harassed by the gov’t. There have been instances of these organizations using people they should never have allowed to participate and those people have violated the law and been brought up on charges. Most of the civilian organizations have great working relationships with the Border Patrol. And as far as I know, all of these groups call the BP to actually come and get anybody they pick up and the BP always does.

Flatrock,

These people have come to our country with the understanding that while the law is on the books, it's not really enforced.

How can you say its not really enforced when tens of thousands of illegal aliens are arrested each month and over a million in a year?

With millions of illegal immigrants currently in our country, how can we reasonably expect that we can track the majority of them down and deport them? We can't, and any reform that isn't implementable isn't going to fix the problem.

I agree. The one thing I will say for Bush’s plan is that it is feasible and I can’t come up with a better one to get rid of the 8-15 million illegal aliens here in the US.

 

[Waitone]

Across the years I've wondered from time to time if annexing Mexico might be the thing to do, and - after cleaning up the politics, criminal and economic world (fifty years or so) - statehood...... maybe.

I've speculated the same thing. There is something one sided and unseemly about the relationship between V. Fox and Bush. Here we have the head of the only superpower on earth acting like a lap dog around the president of a corrupt, socialist paradise. I see Bush rolling on his back while Fox scratches his belly. I SEE NOTHING COMING BACK FROM FOX. I SEE A ONE SIDED RELATIONSHIP. Knowing countries don't have relationships, they have interests; I've wondered what the US is getting in return for basically releasing the steam building in the pressure cooker called Mexico.

I suspect it has something to do with oil. In exchange for effectively preventing a social revolution in Mexico we would get preferrential access to Mexican oil. . . .that's my thinkin.' In any case Bush stands no chance of passing anmesty without clearly stating what it is the US will gain.

 

[fjolnirsson]

ahenry,

No they haven’t been harassed by the gov’t. There have been instances of these organizations using people they should never have allowed to participate and those people have violated the law and been brought up on charges.

As I said," I don't know much about them, and what I did know was from a website that has now been shut down.
If these people were doing stupid crap, they deserve what they got.
Thanks for the info.

 

[nemesis]

I’ll ask again; Do you even know anything about the Expedited Removal program Bush instituted?

Yeah, I do. I live almost within sight of the border and the only thing being removed here is my patience.

I have personally talked with Border Patrol and Customs agents who estimate that, perhaps, 10% of the illegals are apprehended. Add to that, the only ones they apprehend are those actually in the act of illegally entering or travelling northward.

The last census established that at least 30% of this county is "foreign born" and we know they didn't accurately count all the many uncharted colonias nor the illegals that didn't want to be counted. Some estimates suggest that as much as 40% of the valley population may be here illegally.

Here's the good news. Our unemployment is the highest in the state, we don't have enough schools and can't build them fast enough nor fund them all, our hospitals are in crisis, wages are artificially low due to the vast numbers of illegals accepting wages less than minimum wage, our DUI rates are amongst the highest in the state, our insurance premiums are exorbitantly high as illegals don't purchase state tags, use Mexican tags (menos la estampilla), don't put their cars through the state safety inspection, don't purchase insurance, our criminal violence rate is unusually high as they resort to violence over menial details and....................

Nobody is Expediting the Removal of anyone!

That may look great on paper but it ain't happenin' here and here is where they come in.

 

[wolf]

Border Patroles...

Groups like "ranch rescue" have been "under the gun" lately..seems the local politicians have been catching hell from well organized "immigrant rights" groups..Immigrant rights groups consist of, religious, political, and of course..the mexican govt.

We dont see the workings of the mexican govt up close..but it seems to work like this..they fill their media & press with "news" that the US is "hunting" mexicans, carrying open weapons and willing to kill "undocumented workers"..this of course gets the phones ringing in the local border towns and the local politicians tell the local cops to put a stop to "unauthorized" patrols...so they arrest several of the "vigilante" group members..and this becomes great news to the immigrant groups..and not much really changes

We are not going to stop illegal immigration...there is little political will to do so and even less economic will...those of us that are angry and frustrated will just have to endour..new forms of amnesty will rise and millions of illegals will now be US citizens...not that they want to be...but now they can legally receive SS and Medicare..and VOTE...to think this is not part of both major parties agenda is to be blind..if we wanted we could stop illegal immigration and have 100% employment in the US...

Now a new generation of Americans is growing up hearing "..jobs that Americans WONT do.." like construction and other manual labor jobs. Seems that alot of Americans WOULD do those jobs and were paid well for building every city from Maine to California. Now suddenly the rate of pay is less than 1/4 of what it was for these jobs, and they are mostly non-union and "tailor made" for the illegal alien.

Its slavery..only this time we pay the slaves.

wolf

 

[flatrock]

Ahenry,

How can you say its not really enforced when tens of thousands of illegal aliens are arrested each month and over a million in a year?

Recently there has been a considerably greater effort to enforce the immigration laws than there was under the clinton administration. However, even now, the numbers that get through are noticably greater than the ones that get deported.

Even when illegal aliens are arrested, in the past they were often released pending deportation, and they surprisingly wouldn't show up to be deported.

What the idea of making it possible for many of these people to become legal aliens is that it shrinks the task of enforcemnt. It doesn't help close our borders so much as reduce the number of illegal aliens that the immigrations officers must deal with allowing them to concentrate on the ones that pose the greatest danger.

It also gives those legal aliens the recourse of reporting abusive employeers without fear of deportation. This makes it harder for those who hire and abuse illegal immigrants to continue to do so.

That should make it easier for immigration to crack down on those who hire illegal immigrants, and reduce their numbers. When the jobs for illegal immigrants become harder to find, less immigrants will choose to come here illegally.

Once we have a workable immigration system in place, I'm all for deporting any illegal aliens. I agree with the idea of not denying them emergency medical care, but deporting them as soon as the care is completed.

Illegal immigrants should not have access to welfare or medical benefits other than any benefits they might receive in the short time they are awaiting deportation.

However, I still believe that part of making those efforts possible is making it possible for more immigrants to legally enter the country who are willing to contribute to our society.

If our population grows to much, maybe we should consider exiling some of the extreme liberals that are trying to tear our society appart.

 

[Wildalaska]

Just from the view of numbers how many can we take in, can we as a nation
provide jobs, medical care for the world, as is illegals provide a work pool for
the wealth the taxpayer must pay higher taxes to build schools, hospitals, etc. I have read Texas would now need to build one school per day to stay
even with the numbers coming in. The illegals in turn send much of there money to Mexico. It is not the 1800's the world's population is growing very
fast we will need to in the very near future face the facts we need to slow
immigration, we cannot continue to sent our manufacturing jobs to other
countries while importing 3th world folks with perhaps a 6th grade education. :banghead:

In the 1840s they were saying that about the Irish, in the 1890s about Jews and Italians.

I agree however that we need to close the borders for at least 10 years, exccept for immediate (husban, wife, kid) of US citizen.

WildswmboisanimmigrantAlaska

 

[ahenry]

Nemesis,
Check your PM…

Yeah, I do [know something about Expedited Removals]. I live almost within sight of the border and the only thing being removed here is my patience.

If I remember correctly, you live in the Valley. Only two Border Patrol stations are currently utilizing the ER program neither one of which is in the Valley. Expedited Removal is a huge amount of authority to grant a law enforcement agency, and the potential for screw-ups is pretty large. Like many other systems the INS/BP/DHS/CBP/etc have used, testing on a small scale is done prior to moving nation wide. Rest assured Expedited Removal is coming your way…

That may look great on paper but it ain't happenin' here and here is where they come in.

Actually “here†is the thousands of miles of the southern border.

 

[pax]

Build a big fence?

If I were a landowner along the border, I'd be very happy to have the Gov't put up a big fence.

Sealing the borders sounds like a good plan.

Keeping the border sealed was one of the things that bankrupted the old Soviet Union.

pax

Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat its errors; those who do will find new ways to err. -- unknown

 

[Tag]

Fletch, Ranch Rescue has tried and is trying to protect private landowners by offering to patrol their land... it is not a big hit with the powers that be.

As far as the Bush Expedited Removal plan... What possible good can it do so long as the border is a sieve? They will just come back, again and again.

In the 1840s they were saying that about the Irish, in the 1890s about Jews and Italians.

I think there is a big difference between people comeing here legally and those slipping accross the border in the night.

 

[ed2010]

Annexing..

Across the years I've wondered from time to time if annexing Mexico might be the thing to do, and - after cleaning up the politics, criminal and economic world (fifty years or so) - statehood...... maybe.

Strange, but I heard Boortz recently mention the same thing (primarily, tongue-in-cheek) - albeit done by Marines.

Ideas?

-Andy

It seems as if we are the ones being annexed.

And its not just border states that are seeing this, but all over
the country.

there is a group that is trying to do something at a website
called NumbersUSA
http://www.numbersusa.com

 

[Penforhire]

Well I know the laws are NOT enforced around me (Los Angeles area). Border patrol sweeps raised such a ruckus they were stopped. Among the complaints, "we don't have the jails to hold them all." Well my answer to that is you don't need to hold 'em for long if you deport them immediately.

To WildAlaska, comparing today's Mexican illegals to the waves of European immigrants in the late 1800's to early 1900's is a poor match. They came through immigration control, usually Ellis Island, as my grandparents did, and were often fleeing persecution (one reason I cut Central American refugees more slack). Mexicans are just tired of their country's economic situation. Though I'll agree the residents in the 1900's must have complained bitterly about the same issues (loss of jobs, etcetera).

 

[Sindawe]

Another difference between the earlier waves of immigration into this country and that which we are experiencing now is that in years past, immigrants wanted to become part of America, to assimilate into the culture and contribute to it. They wanted their kids to learn to read, write and speak English fluently, get good jobs and become part of our culture and in the process add to it.

Too many of the immigrants today do not want to do this. We must adapt to them, so now we have 2nd and 3rd generation citizens who have become and underclass. Education is shunned as 'unmanly', even though its freaking 'free', and if one expects them to be able to converse in an understandable dialect, we are accused of 'racism'. Criminal aliens come here, work under the table, send $$$ home, drive down the wages, use the services paid for by those born here, those whom immigrated legally or those who've worked here for a time and then left 'cause they can't find a job in their field.

Close the freaking border. MINE all of it not in ports of entry. Fence it, and electrify the fence. Leave the corpses of those killed trying to enter illegally to rot and bleach in the sun as warning to those who follow. Crimminal aliens apprehended inside the borders are deported back to their native lands and forever barred from entry again. This applies to ALL of em. White, Black, Yellow or Brown.

 

[Tag]

Close the freaking border. MINE all of it not in ports of entry. Fence it, and electrify the fence. Leave the corpses of those killed trying to enter illegally to rot and bleach in the sun as warning to those who follow. Crimminal aliens apprehended inside the borders are deported back to their native lands and forever barred from entry again. This applies to ALL of em. White, Black, Yellow or Brown.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Fletchette]

Sealing the borders sounds like a good plan.

Keeping the border sealed was one of the things that bankrupted the old Soviet Union.

pax

Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat its errors; those who do will find new ways to err. -- unknown

Pax,

I'd have to respectfully disagree. Securing the borders of a nation is one of the essential functions of a sovereign government. The old Soviet Union did not crumble because of lax immigration (who wanted to immigrate INTO the Soviet Union?), it crumbled because Communism does not respect Individual Rights.

A closer historical analogy would be that of Rome. They did not secure their borders. Guess what happened?

We are facing a similar crisis. If illegals can easily smuggle TONS of drugs across the border, smuggling a nuke is trivial. Furthermore, they wouldn't even need nukes- they could smuggle a sick Chinese bird.

Something has to be done. Simply saying "it is too difficult" doesn't cut it.

 

[rock jock]

I suspect it has something to do with oil.

Dear Mr. Moore,

Looking for another Oscar?

 

[Selfdfenz]

While we focus on the most visible issue (illegals from Mexico) that's just part of the picture.

My son's first grade teacher happened to mention to me that in his school (K-2nd grade) and at the Independent School District level the taxpayers were supporting a pretty large number of foreign languages in their English As a Second Language Program (ESL).

Try 37 different foreign languages.

While we argue over what to do, or not to do, the World is pouring in. The argument that what worked in the 1800's is ok now or even desirable follows the same logic that would have us all go back to kerosene lamps.

S-

 

[Fletchette]

Found this FYI:

http://www.americanpatrol.com/ACTIVISTNEWS/MINUTEMAN-PROJECT/041115Update.html

I wonder if they will be stepped on by the Feds. Should be interesting.

 

[DRZinn]

Sindawe:
You mentioned sending money back to Mexico. So many of them do it, in fact, that money sent from Mexicans in the US is Mexico's second-largest source of income!

You mentioned earlier immigrants wanting to assimilate and that not being the case with this bunch. In fact, so many Mexican citizens who die in the US are being shipped back to Mexico for burial that the Mexican government has set aside twelve million dollars this year to help!

And as for your plan at the border - where do I sign up to lay the mines?

 

[Wildalaska]

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning the breathe free..
The wretched refuse of your teeming shores
I lift my lamp beside the Golden Door.....

Gaw darn how we have changed as a nation....

Wildmygreatgrammawneverspokeenglishuptoherdeathin1960onlyyiddishandrussianAlaska

 

[Brian Dale]

Yeah, Wild, we used to write poems like that when most immigrants came here legally.

ahenry, you corrected Fletchette with

The arrest authority of a Border Patrol Agent has always extended {etc.}

When did they start calling them "Agents?" Spiffy FBI-style public relations term, if you ask me. Back when my Dad (and Jordan, and Askins, and ... ) were in the BP, they just called 'em PIs (Patrol Inspectors) or "officers." Seriously ... when?

 

[Fletchette]

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning the breathe free..
The wretched refuse of your teeming shores
I lift my lamp beside the Golden Door.....

Gaw darn how we have changed as a nation....

Wildmygreatgrammawneverspokeenglishuptoherdeathin1960onlyyiddishandrussianAlaska

Wild,

I am not against immigration. Please read my earlier posts - If I were born abroad I would do anything to come here too! In fact, some of my best friends are immigrants; my fiance is German. I have noticed that the immigrants I have met tend to be highly motivated and ambitious. They also tend to understand and value our Constitution better than most native-born Americans. Yet, when I ask my immigrant friends how they feel about the border situation they are, almost without exception, livid.

They are upset that they had to jump through years of bureaucratic hoops, be interviewed and interrogated, pay application fees, take exams etc., and that other immigrants simply walked across the border and are sponging off of wellfare, public schools, our medical system, etc.

The last straw, as it were, is the fact that manaical terrorists are hell bent on smuggling nukes into this country via our open border. They are, quite frankly, concerned that this country and the freedom they worked so hard for will be destroyed.

I think that we can fully honour the words on the Statue of Liberty AND secure the borders from foreign invasion as specified in the Constitution. Doing nothing dishonours both.

 

[sigmaman]

machinist viewpoint

technology gains means a 6th grade education is all your going to need to run production jobs
bush was a promoter of the temporary worker visa program in his first campaign
right now the illegals would all be legal if he and vincente fox didnt have a falling out over iraq and the u.n.
the way social security is right now and our low birth rate we need imigration to keep S.S. solvent but the influx of too many immigrants will drive down wages giving most americans less purchasing power
less purchasing power means less to spend which means companys need to reduce costs vis a vis sending jobs overseas which means less americans have jobs
were screwed!

 

[DRZinn]

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning the breathe free..
The wretched refuse of your teeming shores
I lift my lamp beside the Golden Door.....

Gaw darn how we have changed as a nation....

Though it's already been said, here's my piece:

I'm not anti-immigration. But we need to know who, exactly, is coming into our country. You can't draw a legitimate parallel between the immigrants that arrived on Ellis Island, were registered, examined, etc, etc, etc and the ones who sneak in and then try to change the laws to fit them. (bilingual education, amnesties, drivers licenses, etc).