BP firearms designed for self defense

[ZVP]

Well a lot of us shoot these single actions more than we shoot anything else and that makes a fine platform to base your defense upon. Yes they are slow to reload but incidents have proven that most gunfights are done within 3-5 shots. This places a BP revolver right in there.
Making sure your gun is reliable is the key. If you have good powder and caps and the caps stay put, then theBP revolver ought to be a viable choice. Yes the current batch of Hi Capacity semi-autos may be better bur if yiu are comfortable with and have a powerfull enough revolver you stand a good chance.
Actually nearly each version of the Colt or Remington were built to be fighting handguns and served their owners well. Today the bg has a distinct advantage with Hi Cap Mags and if you use a BP gun, make sure that you pratice!
Otherwise I think a B/P gun is a viable defensive weapon.
Boy the courts will have a heyday with it!
ZVP

 

[Jaymo]

High capacity is nice, but only hits count.

My .61 caliber roundballs for the Howdah are dropping at 350 grains. Pure lead .60 caliber ball should be about 410 grains. According to Forefather's Casting Shop.
I know the balls I cast for it aren't pure lead. They're a bit harder and penetrate very well.
However, either my cheap digital scale is off or my alloy has more tin and such than I thought.
They should make great coup de grace shots when hog hunting.

 

[CHM]

I am certain I might offend some of the folks on this list, but why would one trust their life and perhaps their loved ones with less technology than a perpetrator might have? I love BP guns and am accruing quite a number of them. They are a blast to shoot and I am certain would do well if absolutely necessary, but modern centerfire ammo in a semi-auto or even a 357 magnum or 38 spl revolver would at least offer close to 100% reliability. I am specifically addressing cap and ball here, and believe a Colt SAA would do just fine with self-defense. It wouldn't be my first choice, but it would certainly be reliable and one probably wouldn't need to worry about firing more than once or twice and it would be relatively close range.

 

[BlackPowderSmoke]

.....but modern centerfire ammo in a semi-auto or even a 357 magnum or 38 spl revolver would at least offer close to 100% reliability.

If a cap and ball firearm is maintained and loaded properly, it is just as reliable as even the newest firearm design. The determining factor is not the weapon of choice, it is the knowledge, skill and proficiency of the shooter.

 

[damoc]

The original post may have been meant for just cap and ball but the 45 colt cartridge
using BP is just as reliable and powerfull as any modern cartridge of similar balistic
properties when you consider what others have said about 3 to 5 shots being the norm
for self defense shots fired.

same goes for all the other BP loads including shotgun.

like blackpodersmoke just said its all practice i shoot so much more with BP revolvers
than modern it has become more of a liability to have a modern revolver in my hands because i am much more likely to treat it and shoot like it was my BP if i was under
the stress of self defense.

 

[BlackPowderSmoke]

With all due respect to all, we have two groups of people in regards to cap and ball firearms.

One group believes these firearms to be less reliable than modern firearms. After all, their cap and ball firearms misfire often enough to give them just cause to question them.

Then there are some of us that don't have such problems. Our cap and ball firearms perform just as well as any modern firearm we have ever owned or handled.

Do you suppose that those in latter group are just lucky or skilled at sniffing out the duds? Or do you suppose that when it comes to caring for and loading their cap and ball firearms, they could be doing something differently than those in the first group?

 

[BHP FAN]

Well, I have a shotgun, or a BHP I'd grab first for any serious ''social encounter'', but If I had my Colt BP snubby or Remington on me when things started to go bad, I'd use those. I'd use the tools at hand.

 

[Busyhands94]

any BP firearm in the right hands with the right load can be lethally used. a .44 ball traveling 800 FPS is still going to kill if it hits vitals. a sicko or a bad guy will be no less dead if he is shot with a cap and ball than if he were shot with a modern .38 or a 45. dead is dead. as i said i sure would never want to be staring down the cold barrel of a colt walker, seeing those blue wrestlers staring me down from the cylinder, and hear the deadly >click< of the hammer being cocked. if i were a bad guy i would be no less discouraged from attacking than if it was a .38 special. if i were a bad guy i would reform my childish behavior for the sake of not getting blown away. a cap and ball is still a firearm. and with the stress of the situation it would not matter if the gun was modern or not, to a criminal looking down the barrel it is very obvious that it is a gun whether modern or not. now a flintlock might not be so believable unless you are getting mugged by a confederate soldier as it might not be taken seriously due to the fact that you only have one shot and it looks like a pirate pistol.

 

[BlackPowderSmoke]

Busyhands,
You brought up a valid point in regards using cap and ball for defense, that is the possibility of not being taken seriously by an uninformed scumbag. Though one should be prepared to use a weapon when it is drawn, an intimidating weapon may defuse the situation without having to shoot the person who it is about to be directed to. That is why....

I refer the more modern looking 58 Remington over all, although a Colt is no less, if not more intimidating to most. (especially the HUGE Walker).

Though gooped lube being unnecessary is the primary reason my chambers are not white from Crisco being gooped in, there is an appearance factor. To the uninformed, it does look less intimidating.

! avoid antique worn or rusted finishes. I remember several months ago showing my stepson pics of a 58 Remington that had been finished with salt and vinegar to produce an old, rusted look. His response was, "Will that old thing still shoot?"....

Finally, though flintlocks are quite lethal and reliable in capable hands, they shoot only once and as you pointed out, stand a chance of not being taken seriously by an uninformed scumbag.

 

[ElvinWarrior]

Busy...

I know how you love to tinker, and how you love to build kits and even home build guns from scratch...

The following pic, is a finished, working model, the original fired 45/70's, and I think the somewhat scaled down kit version, fires 45/70's as well.

You can either buy, a full kit, a partial kit, which has the major custom machined parts all finished off, or, just the plans, with no parts at all. I am not positive, but I think they also offer it alrready built and ready to go as well...

Imagine this little puppy, sitting in your living room, angled towards the front door, promenantly displayed....

Should do the trick !!!

If it were mine, I think I would break with tradition just a little bit, and add a little mini steam engine on the side, to turn the crank for me... Lots of steam engine kits out there, some big enough to power a small boat !!!

And...

CHM...

There are Center Fire BP cartridge guns as well, and centerfire conversion cylinder kits for nearly all models of the old classic revolvers. I have even heard of some people building their own conversion cylinders for some of the more odd types of revolvers out there. And let us not forget the old lever action rifle classics... Ever watch the old TV series "The Rifleman"???... That's an 1873 Winchester, 45/40 BP Cartridges, nice little bush gun that !!!....

Make ya feel any better about some BP guns yet?



Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Well, I know this. I have a good Christian heart. I will try to help someone that need's help and God know's I will feed anyone I can that's hungry. That's how I am...I like my '58 and my '47 and I trust them and myself with them absolutely. I'm just like anybody else out there who's got good sense. Don't want to get involved in anything like that although sometimes things happen. If somebody breaks in or sneak's in on me they are shot. Straight up. I'm real good with my guns although I'm not quite as fast as I used to be. I'm sure the first shot will positively do the job, but it wouldn't make a damn to me. I'd still hammer a couple of more through the sonofab**** and that's a fact. I can guarantee anybody that I'll give him 6 feet of Wyoming that no one will ever take away from him....

 

[bubba15301]

Elviv warrior -if you add an steam engine to that it becomes a machine gun

 

[Cop Bob]

TE-HEE-HEE.... I have been there... Several times... Funny stuff... it is what kept me showing up for work...

As far as dependability of Black Powder for self defense... no question, it will work and work well.. as far as current production guns, dang if I know.. I do know that before I joined the police department, for a while I carried an 1871 New Army (Original) in 44-40 with BP loads for protection around the office.. Did this several times.. gun was a family heirloom so I decided not to carry any longer, did I have faith it would do the job? Absolutely!

 

[Cop Bob]

Naolith: "If the BP gun is loaded, it's considered a "deadly weapon" in most states, and "deadly weapons" are regulated."

Dave Markowitz: "Nalioth is correct. Muzzleloaders are not Federally regulated for the purposes of transfer. Some states treat them differently, e.g., New York and New Jersey, and regulate them similarly to breech loading guns.

I cannot think of a state in which a muzzleloader would not be classed as a weapon if used or carried as such."

I absolutely concur... It's transfer and purchase are FEDERALLY REGULATED, but it use is regulated by the STATE.... in fact ALMOST ANYTHING can be classified as a "Deadly Weapon" by "The manner of it's intended use" an example would be, a Shovel, a Pool Que, a length of chain, I have even had Aggravated Assault Deadly Weapon charges filed against someone who used a ball point pen to stab someone.. (yeah, even the DA laughed about the old Pen Vs. Sword reference). As well as in at least 5 cases where a BB gun was used.. (You don't shoot 4 and 5 year olds on a playground with a BB gun, one we chronographed at 1000fs!)

The feds lay out the rules for its purchase, but it is the States than control the rules for its use...

 

[ZVP]

I always thought about using a BP revolver would be cool!
It's a "real gun" afterall but there are certain parts of a load (like the Caps) with which one must be very carefull. You want it to go BOOM and a lost or loose cap really messes things up!
Cartrige conversions with BP loaded cartriges, would be great. Totally period correct and totally dependable.
I know in the old days shooters would carry Colts and Remingtons without a worry because they had the best technology at their side. Today the bad guys are just as tough and many subscribe to the pray and spray philosophy, so a CAS shooter or a who is praticed with his/her BP revolver is at the advantage because they will hit their mark! A shooter who is familliar with a BP revolver also has the know-how to keep one running and hopefully is up on all the little tricks it takes to keep the gun serviceable.
When at the Club just target shooting, I know when I have done a good cap seating and have the gun ready to go just right, this is the way you'd have to prepare your self-defense revolver. You know when you set it up right...
There are a number of excersizes you'd have to go through to get to a second chamber if one failed and you'd have to regulate your sights down to closer range etc.
I have my 5 1/2" Remington '58 zero'd to 21ft dead center. I filed it so because I wanted a plinker that would be set-up for close range blasting! The gun is well centered and to shoot at extended ranges, I use the Keith Method of lowering the rear sight. No problems with this sight setup. It has sure suprised a lot of Glock owners when I pull up and knock the center out of a combat target! This sight set-up would likely be correct for combat shooting with this revolver too! With a round ball above 30 gr of powder it hits HARD!
I carry BP afield but am aware it's shortcomings.
My short barreled Remington is easier to carry while fishing either in a sholder holster or a high ride hip holster. It's just about the same size as my Vaquero.
I wonder if it would be better to load one of the substitute Powderws that might be less affected by moisture than real Black Powder? Might be something to think about.
Is Pyrodex more resistant to moisture?
A big .44 was and still IS a manstopper!
ZVP

 

[scotjute]

The Colt pocket pistols in .31 and .36 caliber and the Derringer pistols come to mind as designed for self-defense up-close. In a sense, all the pistols were designed for self-defense in those situations when you could not get to a rifle or shotgun.
Personally, I do not think the sight of a percussion pistol staring you in the face would not be taken seriously. They are large pistols and look dangerous.
I have no heart-burn with depending on mine except that I prefer smokeless cartridge pistols due to ease of reloading and less clean-up. Like the way the old pocket pistols are so easily concealed.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

.31 is a fine little piece. I use the Uberti (Colt) Pocket .31 with the 4 inch barrel..I like it a lot. I seldom use it with a holster. Just drop it in my pocket and go on about my business. .31 will damn sure put a bad hurting on somebody..I have my '58's and Cattleman Carbines proofed up and all. I use Triple Seven 3fff and keep them loaded all the way around with load's equal to .44-40. They'll knock the living snot out of damn near anything. The '47's are tuned and polished and set, and not much ever need's to be said about one of them..

 

[tdv]

ZVP...I encourage you to stick with 3F GOEX in your 58. I used Pyrodex for years in all my BP guns to reduce fouling. But all things considered, I have much more confidence in GOEX. It goes bang every time. I don't ever have ignition problems with it.
I get good results and accuracy in some guns with Pyrodex, and have hunted with it successfully. But every once in a while I have ignition problems. This is especially critical if you are using your 58 for self defense.

 

[tdv]

Cop Bob...good summary on the legal side of BP guns. The laws and lawyers are aggravating at best. To them, a hot cup of coffee is a deadly weapon. Still it is convenient to be able to freely purchase and exchange BP guns in most states. I think there is extra justice served in ending a life threatening encounter with lead round balls and a cloud of smoke!

 

[tdv]

BP power is for real. If you have a cap and ball pistol, shoot some steel targets with it. I have a rack of head plates, and various other spinning steel targets in my backyard range. My BP guns knock the snot out of them!
I was shooting at one particular steel target yesterday that is rated up to 30-06. I was shooting with BP loads with my Uberti 1873 at 30 yards, and broke the target. It sheared off, a clean break. Those 250 grain bullets out of a 30" barrel thump the heck out of my steel targets! I shoot that particular target all the time with my AR-15, and haven't broke it yet. Five rapid-fire shots of heavy lead did it in. Whether cap and ball, BP cartridge guns, a BP shotgun, etc...dead is dead.

 

[batjka]

As far as the intimidation factor, I have taken a buddy that never shot a gun before with me to the range. I had a 1858 Remington, another buddy was shooting a P226. My non-shooting buddy's was MUCH more impressed by the Remington, which he thought was intimidating and made very impressive holes in the target. The 9mm, he was like "meh, nothing scary". So a .44 cal will make someone think twice about continuing their unlawful activities.

 

[Tommygunn]

Ever watch the old TV series "The Rifleman"???... That's an 1873 Winchester, 45/40 BP Cartridges, nice little bush gun that !!!....

Actually the rifle Chuck Connors used was a modified 1892 Winchester in .44-40. They were commonly used in TV shows and movies of the time, probably because they were plentiful and back then, there was less concern for authenticity than later.
Both the 1892 and the '73 would have made good brush guns though.

 

[rajb123]

If your Cap and ball revolver was loaded and stayed in your house for say six months, would the powder still be good? What about in a humid climate?

 

[BlackPowderSmoke]

If your Cap and ball revolver was loaded and stayed in your house for say six months, would the powder still be good? What about in a humid climate?

Yep, if the caps are the proper size and snugly fitted onto the nipple and the ball has a uniform shaved ring, the powder will remain dry through the humid months, and for years...

 

[JShirley]

If it were mine, I think I would break with tradition just a little bit, and add a little mini steam engine on the side, to turn the crank for me... Lots of steam engine kits out there, some big enough to power a small boat !!!

As bubba mentioned, adding an engine would make this an automatic weapon, and therefore, Federally regulated. And you would need to get ATF approval and pay the tax before getting the engine, much less connecting it.

John