Brandishing, resisting arrest, and disturbing the peace

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Not even a little. We have far more widespread reporting of salacious and atrocious unusual events, but these things have ALWAYS happened. People, and "the world" have not changed, even a little, in recorded history. How many mass-murderers were there 100 or 200 years ago (per capita)? How many creepy men who raped kids and other vulnerable people? How many untreated psychotic/dementia types killed their families or others?

Yup...anyone ever read the exploits of the Marquis de Sade? He was a revolutionary and believer in liberty...but he was also worse than people like Jerry Sandusky where sex crimes were concerned.

How about Jack the Ripper, the various and sundry ocean pirates, river pirates, highway men etc. etc. etc. who have raped, murdered and robbed throughout history on every continent and in every country inhabited by humans.
 
It was in my trunk, legally I want to point out. And I said, ‘It’s there, I can do it if I want to, and there’s no reason not to, I guess.’”
Ok, great! We've established motivation, and it's perfectly acceptable. Hopefully now we can dispense with the "trouble-making viral video" flak.

Good kid, exercising his rights in a lawful way.
 
How can you be arrested for exercising a legal right? If you are butt ugly and your appearance offends someone, is the police allowed to arrest you for causing a disturbance? Of course not, people are allowed to be as ugly as home made sin without being arrested. The same should apply to all rights.
 
As the discussion was about the story of a young guy (who's exact motives we don't really know...if it matters at all) and/or the folks walking in protest of the police actions against him, hetting wound up about OTHER folks who do x,y,z just to bug the police seem to be dragging us off topic.

HAVING SAID THAT, I will make a statement about these protesters and others like them. (Not, perhaps about the viral video guys who don't know what they're doing.)

As in the efforts of the VCDL guys down in VA, there exists a very powerful tool for change which does center around doing something to get the attention of the police and record (video) their response. If and incident occurs where someone (like the young man in the story) is hassled by the police for an action that is LEGAL, an effective tool of re-education and policy shift is to stage a deliberate, coordinated, group effort to do EXACTLY the same thing, publicly and with notice given to the authorities who made the initial overstep. Step into public view (with cameras rolling), and demand that those authorities either a) arrest you for your actions, or b) accept your actions as lawful, on the record.

If a) then you have legal standing to take the matter to court and force the department to conform its policy with state law (or, if you want to take things a lot further, through federal court to prove a 2nd Amendment "right to bear arms" matter). If b) then you have established a public, documented precedent which can be held up to demand consistent treatment of all by your local law enforcement agency. And that can even be used to help the initial wronged party in his case, by putting into evidence that police reaction to him was inconsistent with their reaction to others when the cameras were on them.

So, a little calculated, purposeful, righteous "trouble-making" can be a VERY good thing. It is wise to remember that law enforcement officers and policy makers are human beings, too, and they make serious mistakes sometimes in interpreting and administering the state laws made by our elected representatives. It is vitally important -- not that they be crucified or denigrated for making mistakes -- but that they be educated and forced (if necessary) to correct those mistakes so they can do a better job of the work WE hire them to do.
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Sam some day if our paths ever cross I will buy you a beer......or another beverage of your choice.


“They understood open carry laws,” Combs said about the arresting officers. “They did tell me that I had to produce identification. I said Michigan is a no-stop ID state, I do not have to produce identification. And that ticked them off.”


A TARGET


Birmingham Police Chief Don Studt has a different perspective on the incident. He firmly supports his officers and their decision to arrest Combs when he refused to cooperate. He believes the officers had a right to ask Combs to produce ID because they weren’t convinced he was 18.

http://www.hometownlife.com/article/20120522/NEWS02/120522021/Armed-response

Thanks for the update: Obviously it's not nice to pi$$ off mother nature.

There are a lot of people walking around with a chip on their shoulder and need to be dressed down. I am not sure this is the case but I wasn't there. Defending the department is normal procedure; admit fault and open the department/city to be sued. If it went down as the last article said I still think the charges were out of line but IMO fairly typical.
 
Lot's of interesting discussion in this thread. I especially like the picture of the guy with the rifle slung over his back in the grocery store.

Whether or not you agree with the tactical side of open carry (surprise vs. deterrent), if OC is legal, it is legal. I do disagree with those that say the only people who have problem with OC is cops. It's cops, snobby CCers, and the antis that notice. However, a lot of the antis aren't going to want to say anything to you directly because they don't want to talk to a "stone cold killer who's armed and dangerous" (because if you carry, you have to be that).

Sam some day if our paths ever cross I will buy you a beer......or another beverage of your choice.

There are a few people here I've thought similar, except not a beer. Can't carry into a bar in WA ;)

I do entirely agree with the sentiment that if our rights are not used, they are lost. Even if it's legal, its lost. I wish our country was educated to the point where we actually understand gun laws, and that its okay for someone to carry a gun in public. Maybe not understand them to the point where every citizen can recite it, but the basic myths - that only criminals own guns, registration, etc...those need to be dispelled.
 
I don't understand why people do things to draw law enforcement attention to themselves just so they can say "because I can". The police have a duty to check out anyone walking down a public right of way carrying a long gun, or maybe even a handgun. Doing things like this only sheds a bad light on those of us that defend the second amendment. Now, before any of you start flaming me saying "the police should mind their own business, etc., etc." let me ask you this. If this same person is walking down the street with a rifle, and is ignored by the police as some of you will think they should. What will you do if he goes to the school that your kids are at and start shooting the place up? Then everyone would demand to know why the police "didn't do their job" and check this guy out. That's why it's stupid to do things like this when it's unnecessary. All it does is bring problems to the very people that you are trying to make a statement about. Counterproductive. Don't give the anti-gunners ammunition to use against us!

For the same reason our Navy routinely sails across the "Line of Death" in the Gulf of Sidra .... because we can. Rights that are not exercised are soon forfeit.

Placating the Anti's means they have already won.
 
They did tell me that I had to produce identification. I said Michigan is a no-stop ID state, I do not have to produce identification. And that ticked them off

He believes the officers had a right to ask Combs to produce ID because they weren’t convinced he was 18.

Does MI have a law requiring people to be 18 to possess long guns? If so, asking for his ID was perfectly reasonable. Even if not, I'm betting this would have been a non-issue if he'd just produced ID. It may not be required, but being friendly and cooperative with police when they're simply making an inquiry is much more likely to end with you walking away after a few minutes than challenging them.

The kid didn't do anything wrong or illegal, and I certainly don't agree with them actually charging him with crimes. However, if one is going to OC, one should anticipate likely contact with LE at some point and understand that being uncooperative and standoffish has a very good chance of landing you in handcuffs.

When I was 18, I was pulling out of a grocery store parking lot to head home at about 11 PM. Someone had left a shopping cart in front of my lifted truck (didn't notice it, as I approached and entered my vehicle from behind), and I hit it. A cruiser had been parked across the lot, and he stopped me, asking why I did that. I simply told him that I did not see it, which he was fine with. I also had two rifles in the rack in my truck. The officer asked for ID, registration, ins. proof and if I minded him checking S/N's on the rifles. I did not object, and I was on my way without a ticket in about 15 minutes. What do you think would've happened if I'd challenged him about the guns? I mean, after all, I had a legal right to have them and they were not related to the incident, right? Well, I knew darn well that I had a better chance of getting out of there quickly and without some sort of citation if I was very polite and cooperative, and it worked.

It's one thing when an officer is way out of line, is hostile from the get-go, and just decks and cuffs a person who is doing nothing wrong. But people need to understand that if the officer is just making an inquiry, challenging him is going to make him want to find something, anything unlawful or even borderline about your actions, and in many cases, they can if they look hard enough. Do what you wish, but to me, it's just not worth the hassle.
 
Sam some day if our paths ever cross I will buy you a beer......or another beverage of your choice.
...
There are a few people here I've thought similar, except not a beer. Can't carry into a bar in WA
No worries, come on up to PA and we can belly up to the bar and bend an elbow without disarming. :)
 
But people need to understand that if the officer is just making an inquiry, challenging him is going to make him want to find something, anything unlawful or even borderline about your actions, and in many cases, they can if they look hard enough. Do what you wish, but to me, it's just not worth the hassle.
A little inconvenience is worth exercising your rights against unreasonable search and seizure, such as with checking of a gun's serial number or ID verification.

Authority is meant to be questioned.


If one is not comfortable refusing an officer's request for ID, a pragmatic alternative is to simply not carry ID. Can't give up what you don't have.
 
Lot's of interesting discussion in this thread. I especially like the picture of the guy with the rifle slung over his back in the grocery store.

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It is from Switzerland by the way. The guy in the photo is part of their compulsory militia and likely coming home from training.
 
I can't help wondering how this would have been different if the rifle had been in a case . . .
 
I can't help wondering how this would have been different if the rifle had been in a case . . .

Well, at the very least it would have been a lot more awkward to carry any great distance, that's for sure.
 
A little inconvenience is worth exercising your rights against unreasonable search and seizure, such as with checking of a gun's serial number or ID verification.

Asking for ID isn't a 4th amendment violation; They are not searching you and are not seizing your property.

I'm very much a constitutionalist, but I do understand the difference between having one's rights violated and simply being the subject of an inquiry when you do something of questionable legality or judgement. In most cases, simply being cooperative with these inquiries results in a no harm, no foul situation that allows you and LEOs to remain on amicable terms. Being an arrogant prick toward the cop will probably protract the encounter and make it less than favorable when it doesn't need to be. Things like demanding to see a radar during a traffic stop or accusing the officer of violating your civil rights when he really hasn't aren't going to help you (most likely will cost you time, aggravation and possibly money). I have enough stress in life without creating an undesireable sitation that doesn't need to exist.

If a gaggle of police go pounding on my door and demanding to enter my home with no warrant and no reason they can articulate for believing it is a case of exigent cirumstance, they're going to be met with firm opposition and hostility. But if I get pulled over for some minor infraction on my way home from a friend's house at 2 am and have a back seat full of guns and ammunition because we'd been shooting earlier that day (rather, the previous day), I think it's perfectly reasonable for the officer to inquire about them, and I'm not going to give him a hard time for asking. This has, in fact, happened, and by being courteous toward the officer and simply giving him a satisfatory answer that indicated I was not up to no good, I have always left such encounters quickly, with mere warnings for the infraction and no animosity between the officer and myself.

ETA: I debated about mentioning this, but I think it's relevant.

I recently had an encounter with the local sheriff and CPS. You see, my daughters aren't actually mine by blood, and every once in awhile their biological father shows up on the radar and tries to cause problems for my wife and I. This time, it was a call to human services accusing us of leaving loaded firearms in the girls (2 year old twins) bedroom and everywhere else in the house. Now, in CO, there are no laws saying that we can't do that, but it is possible that one could be charged with endangering a child, and it certainly wouldn't help our case in a custody battle. Of course, it isn't true; My firearms are not accessible to the girls. Anyway, the DHS investigator showed up with one local deputy. They asked us who we were (did not demand ID) and then explained the nature of the vist. The were polite and professional, and my wife and I acted in kind. After verbally verifying that they had the correct residence and explaining the situation, they asked if they could have a quick look inside. I could have refused, been adamant about 4th amendment, you need a warrant, blah, blah, blah. Do you think that would have made the encounter pleasant or quashed the bogus accusation by her ex? Of course not. I had no problem letting them verify that there were no deadly weapons in the toddler's bedroom or areas they played, and the result is that further accusations by the bio father will end up being met with a great degree of skepticism, and he could even end up being charged with harrassment if it continues. As well, I ended up making a positive contact with a local deputy, with whom I talked about reloading and other gun related subject matter for a good 15 minutes and even got a contact for the FFL he uses that will definitely save me some money on new firearms.

Being an idealistic prick toward the cop and investigator wouldn't have helped me or anyone else. In fact, only bad things could have come of it. It is entirely possible that, had I refused to identify myself and refused them access to the house, they could have detained me and obtained a search warrant. Even though there were no violations and the accusation was false, "excercising my rights" in such a scenario would have cost me time/money (I work from home), would have made them inclined to actually search the house rather than just take a peek, and it would have been noted on the case file that I was uncooperative. None of this would benefit me or my family, and it could certainly have an undersireable effect on the outcome of a future custody case (these little girls CANNOT benefit from being in an unsupervised environment with their very immature and volatile biological father).

Authority is meant to be questioned.

Sometimes. Whether or not it is prudent or beneficial is entirely dependent on the circumstances.


If one is not comfortable refusing an officer's request for ID, a pragmatic alternative is to simply not carry ID. Can't give up what you don't have.

In many cases, they may be able to detain you until they ascertain your identity. Again, is it worth it?
 
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I can understand wanting ID, but why does the cop need to know the S/Ns of my guns? Unless there was a theft of something of a similar model nearby and they were looking for those, I see no reason to check them.
 
While I agree that "running the numbers" just for a look-see is a search I have no desire to submit to without a fuss (and I have practical reason for feeling that way), I should again point out that we're straying pretty far from the OP.
 
A sling to a rifle is equal to a holster for a handgun. Notice that the armies of the World all carry their rifles with a sling so that they can get to it in a hurry. About the only time you NEED a rifle you need it in a hurry.
 
While I agree that "running the numbers" just for a look-see is a search I have no desire to submit to without a fuss (and I have practical reason for feeling that way)

I would like to hear your reason. Just curiosity.

In my particular example, I knew full well that I could be cited for destruction of property and end up paying for that cart I ran over, even though it wasn't deliberate. Therefore, I was quite willing to be cooperative and pleasant in an effort to avoid that.

Now, if a cop saw me walking across the parking lot where my LGS is and decided to come over and make that same request, I would certainly object. Difference is, in that situation, there's not much he can do to force compliance or cause me grief without risking a reprimand later when I complained to his superior (a "brandishing" or "disturbing the peace" charge certainly wouldn't hold up in the instance you're walking between your vehicle and a gun store/range)

I should again point out that we're straying pretty far from the OP.

Still all relevant, IMO. The whole thread really is about the sometimes very fine line between exercising rights and just being a trouble maker, and how the way you choose to interact with authority may influence the outcome for better or worse.
 
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I would like to hear your reason.

My "practical" reason?

Just as one example, here in PA we have a nasty little piece of law that allows the PASP to keep a database of handgun sales. (Oh no, it sure isn't a "registry", nope, no sirree! Wink, wink.) Not a database of who owns handguns, but the sales. Certain officers of the PASP have developed a bit of a reputation for lifting the carry weapons of anyone who tells them they're carrying -- just to go "run the numbers" and make sure everything's legit. No problemo, right? Now, there are several valid reasons why someone may own and carry weapons that do not appear in the database -- and that resource is specifically NOT to be used in this manner. But it has happened. And if you're carrying a weapon that you've owned since before the database went into effect, or something that you owned before you moved to the state, some officers will confiscate it and leave it up to you to travel to whatever barracks where your gun is being held and prove you own it!

But in general, I see "running your numbers" as practically identical to searching your vehicle or person, etc., without probable cause to believe any crime has been comitted. "Hey, you probably don't have anything to hide, so why don't you just consent to let us check?" Innocent people have no need to fear a search right? :fire:

(a "brandishing" or "disturbing the peace" charge certainly would hold up in the instance you're walking between your vehicle and a gun store/range)
I'm not sure I follow. Why would a brandishing charge -- which is something very specific -- hold up if you're at/near a range or gun shop? There above ALL places you'd have clear and obviously legitimate reasons to be holding/handling firearms in public. I'd think that'd be about the very last place a charge of brandishing would be even attempted!
 
The whole thread really is about the sometimes very fine line between exercising rights and just being a trouble maker

To the contrary. The entire point behind rights being rights is that exercising them isn't always popular. Nobody was ever asked or forced to stop what they were doing when nobody else had a problem with it.

The entire concept of legal rights exists because exercising them can be unpopular. Freedom of speech would not need to be legally protected, if nobody was ever offended by or disagreed with what someone else said. Likewise, the legal right to keep and bear arms would not need to exist if everyone was O.K. with others carrying whatever weapons they wanted.
 
I'm not sure I follow. Why would a brandishing charge -- which is something very specific -- hold up if you're at/near a range or gun shop? There above ALL places you'd have clear and obviously legitimate reasons to be holding/handling firearms in public. I'd think that'd be about the very last place a charge of brandishing would be even attempted!

Edited to correct. I meant to write "wouldn't"

The entire point behind rights being rights is that exercising them isn't always popular. Nobody was ever asked or forced to stop what they were doing when nobody else had a problem with it.

The entire concept of legal rights exists because exercising them can be unpopular. Freedom of speech would not need to be legally protected, if nobody was ever offended by or disagreed with what someone else said. Likewise, the legal right to keep and bear arms would not need to exist if everyone was O.K. with others carrying whatever weapons they wanted.

I don't diagree with you from a philisophical standpoint. Where our opinions differ is in how we accopmlish our goals. Does refusing to show ID to and subsequently being detained by the officer who inquires with you about the weapon somehow help the OC movement more than would showing him your ID and being allowed to continue walking around with the weapon without further harrassment? You know, when other MWAG callers are told by dispatch that you've already been checked out and what you're doing is perfectly legal........

I believe the point in excercising that right kinda gets lost when you demonstrate yourself in a way that comes across as being a hardnosed and uncooperative extremist. When most people end up disagreeing with you and just rolling their eyes at your actions, you haven't accomplished squat for liberty. You have to get other people to agree with you and take up your cause if you really want to make an impact. In other words, make waves, but make the right kind of waves. Pick your battles.
 
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Government by nature is anathema to personal liberty. It is constantly pushing to erode and limit of what the individual can legally do and the only way to resist this pressure is to push back. Practically every freedom we enjoy was at some time illegal or restricted and had to be TAKEN through some form of resistance ranging from civil disobedience to outright war.

King John did not want to sign the Magna Carta, he was forced to. The British did not want to grant the colonies their independence. Women did not earn the right to vote by going along to get along. Some actually went to jail over it. Other women were arrested for smoking in public trying to get the law changed and they did. Some of us here are old enough to remember Woodstock and the massive protests that ended the draft and compulsory military service. I remember when segregation was broken by massive marches and strikes n Selma and Birmingham Alabama. None of this was acomplished by being passive.

History teaches us that people who go along and don’t make waves eventually end up as serfs, slaves and subjects of the powers that be. A liberty not exercised is a liberty soon lost. It has always been that way and it will always be that way, now get out there and flex your rights!
 
To the contrary. The entire point behind rights being rights is that exercising them isn't always popular.

I think the point of the comment you're discussing wasn't "is OC something done as a right or to make trouble?" But rather from the perspective of why the person is OC and how he presents himself. If someone is being confrontational or provacative with the attitude "I have a gun so you can't hurt me" or is taunting people into calling the cops, then its entirely different.
 
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