Brandishing?

[38snapcaps]

My brother was driving home and saw a real jerk weaving in and out of traffic, cutting people off, etc. He came along side and asked him what was his problem? The guy went nuts and jumped out of his car and started pounding on my brother's car saying he would kick his -----! My brother took his pistol (has a CCW) and laid it on the seat to make it clear the punk had better not try to get in the car. The light changed and he continued driving home.

He was followed for several blocks and at another red light the jerk gets out of his car again, and started in pounding on the car and yelling obscenities and threats. This time my brother got out, unarmed, to deal with the guy and he gets smashed in the face with some kind of brass knuckle device, sending him to the hospital with a severe eye injury and facial lacerations.

The police confiscated his gun, saying they needed it for evidence, but gave it back two days later. The attorney my brother consulted said he may be in a bit of a jam because he brandished a weapon which escalated the confrontation. Consequently the punk may get off without much penalty, EVEN THO he was the initiator and aggressor during the whole incident. The police caught the guy pretty quick but let him go and didn't even ask for a statement from my brother. Can you believe it, he smacks another person in the face with some kind of device and doesn't go to jail!!?

My question to you, police or lawyers, how could my brother not have a solid complaint for assault, possibly felonious because of a weapon, and how could he possibly be accused of any kind of wrong? It seems to me he exhibited great restraint and maturity. But the lawyer says he should have never gotten out of the car at all. How could you not, when some dirtbag is following you, screaming at you, and beating on your vehicle? What man wouldn't get out and deal with the idiot? Right, or wrong? We live in Michigan and there is both no retreat and castle doctrine law in effect.

It almost seems like the police are treating my brother like the whole thing was his fault and the attorney isn't on his side either.

There is a good lesson in this story for all of us, any reponses will be greatly appreciated.

 

[19-3Ben]

Well, the police aren't necessarily handling it well. But I think your brother may have put himself in a jam. You see, you don't use the gun as a threat. You don't just pull it out and let it sit there as a discouraging/menacing, "don't mess with me" sort of symbol. You only pull out a gun when you are in grave danger and need to use it to defend yourself. If your brother felt like he could get out of the car unarmed, he obviously didn't feel like he was in direct danger enough that warranted use of a gun. In that case, why was it pulled out in the first place? See where I'm going with this?

On the other hand, this guy is a <butthole edit> and needs to be put down. If it doesn't happen this time, he'll get his next time. I can almost guarantee that he's got a record. And if he doesn't, he will within the very foreseeable future.

I'm really sorry that your brother is in this bind.

 

[rainbowbob]

What man wouldn't get out and deal with the idiot?

Sorry this won't be what you obviously want to hear. The answer to the question is: A full-grown man...a wise man...an armed man looking to avoid a potentially deadly encounter.

Your brother was driving a one-ton battering ram that could have got him out of the situation by merely pressing on the accelarator. He could have avoided any confrontation in the first place by NOT pulling along side of the offender and asking him what his problem was. I assume he had a cell phone? He could have called 911 and reported a negligent dangerous driver. He NEVER, EVER should have exited the vehicle for a physical confrontation unless his life was in danger. That is when the firearm is presented and USED if necesary and justifiable.

See? I told you you wouldn't like the answer.

 

[ninja45]

You won't like my answer either.

Your brother should have just called the cops and stayed as invisible and as far away as possible from guy.

Ninja45

 

[Jacka L Ope]

Good as time as any to whip out the old...

FIVE RULES FOR CONCEALED CARRY

1. YOUR CONCEALED HANDGUN IS FOR PROTECTION OF LIFE ONLY. Draw it solely in preparation to protect yourself or an innocent third party from the wrongful and life-threatening criminal actions of another.

2. KNOW EXACTLY WHEN YOU CAN USE YOUR GUN. A criminal adversary must have, or reasonably appear to have:

A) the ability to inflict serious bodily injury (he is armed or reasonably appears to be armed with a deadly weapon),

B) the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm (he is physically positioned to harm you with his weapon), and

C) his intent (hostile actions or words) indicates that he means to place you in jeopardy -- to do you serious or fatal physical harm. When all three of these attack potential elements are in place simultaneously, then you are facing a reasonably perceived deadly threat that justifies an emergency deadly force response.

3. IF YOU CAN RUN AWAY -- RUN! Just because you’re armed doesn’t necessarily mean you must confront a bad guy at gunpoint. Develop your "situation awareness" skills so you can be alert to detect and avoid trouble altogether. Keep in mind that if you successfully evade a potential confrontation, the single negative consequence involved might be your bruised ego, which should heal with mature rationalization. But if you force a confrontation you risk the possibility of you or a family member being killed or suffering lifelong crippling/disfiguring physical injury, criminal liability and/or financial ruin from civil lawsuit. Flee if you can, fight only as a last resort.

4. DISPLAY YOUR GUN, GO TO JAIL. Expect to be arrested by police at gunpoint, and be charged with a crime anytime your concealed handgun is seen by another citizen in public, regardless of how unintentional or innocent or justified the situation might seem. Choose a method of carry that reliably keeps your gun hidden from public view at all times.You have no control over how a stranger will react to seeing (or learning about) your concealed handgun. He or she might become alarmed and report you to police as "a man or woman with a gun." Depending on his or her feelings about firearms, this person might be willing to maliciously embellish his or her story in attempt to have your gun seized by police or to get you arrested. An alarmed citizen who reports a "man with a gun" is going to be more credible to police than you when you're stopped because you match the suspect's description, and you are found to have a concealed handgun in your possession.Before you expose your gun in public, ask yourself: "Is this worth going to jail for?" The only time this question should warrant a "yes" response is when an adversary has at least, both ability and intent, and is actively seeking the opportunity to do you great harm.

5. DON’T LET YOUR EMOTIONS GET THE BEST OF YOU. If, despite your best efforts to the contrary, you do get into some kind of heated dispute with another person while you’re armed, never mention, imply or exhibit your gun for the purpose of intimidation or one-upmanship. You’ll simply make a bad situation worse -- for yourself (see rule #4).

...as it is as applicable as ever.

Cheers, gents!

 

[BullfrogKen]

Four words:

Avoidance
Disengagement
Escape
Evade


You probably won't like a lot of the responses you're going to receive here.

What man wouldn't get out and deal with the idiot? A mature one. The troubles he's now facing are simply the result of getting involved in a fight. That's the way it goes. If we aren't willing to accept the whole package, then don't play the game. Can you imagine how much worse off he'd be if he had shot him? It does no good to complain about it.


This is another reason why I don't think the model presented just before my post - Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy (AOJ) - is the most appropriate Justification model for the Armed Citizen. Clearly all three were present when he was struck with the brass knuckles. I'm not sure where you copied that from, but I did notice the caveat - Run away. This is the problem with using a Justification model designed for a sworn, duty-obligated Officer as guidance for the Armed Citizen. You have to somehow alter it.


Guns are not magic talismans that make problems go away.

 

[Thernlund]

I agree with the evasion principle in general. But running away only work to an extent. I closed my eyes for a few minutes and imagined myself in the situation you described your brother in. This is what I'd have done I think...

Guy gets out and begins pounding on my window. I'd have shouted "Knock it off Jackass!", but that'd be about it I think. I'd have had my gun ready to go, but not displayed it. I'd have driven off at the light change.

Upon seeing the guy had followed and got out to beat on my window some more, I'd have pointed the gun squarely at him in a manner that clearly told him I was going to defend myself.

If he broke the window, I'd have shot him on the grounds that he was now assaulting me and I was stopping that assault.

At no time would I have just displayed the gun. If he sees it, it's going to be pointed at him.

I'd have called the cops after the second encounter regardless of it's outcome.


-T.

 

[otasan]

Good as time as any to whip out the old...

Quote:
FIVE RULES FOR CONCEALED CARRY

1. YOUR CONCEALED HANDGUN IS FOR PROTECTION OF LIFE ONLY. Draw it solely in preparation to protect yourself or an innocent third party from the wrongful and life-threatening criminal actions of another.

2. KNOW EXACTLY WHEN YOU CAN USE YOUR GUN. A criminal adversary must have, or reasonably appear to have:

A) the ability to inflict serious bodily injury (he is armed or reasonably appears to be armed with a deadly weapon),

B) the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm (he is physically positioned to harm you with his weapon), and

C) his intent (hostile actions or words) indicates that he means to place you in jeopardy -- to do you serious or fatal physical harm. When all three of these attack potential elements are in place simultaneously, then you are facing a reasonably perceived deadly threat that justifies an emergency deadly force response.

3. IF YOU CAN RUN AWAY -- RUN! Just because you’re armed doesn’t necessarily mean you must confront a bad guy at gunpoint. Develop your "situation awareness" skills so you can be alert to detect and avoid trouble altogether. Keep in mind that if you successfully evade a potential confrontation, the single negative consequence involved might be your bruised ego, which should heal with mature rationalization. But if you force a confrontation you risk the possibility of you or a family member being killed or suffering lifelong crippling/disfiguring physical injury, criminal liability and/or financial ruin from civil lawsuit. Flee if you can, fight only as a last resort.

4. DISPLAY YOUR GUN, GO TO JAIL. Expect to be arrested by police at gunpoint, and be charged with a crime anytime your concealed handgun is seen by another citizen in public, regardless of how unintentional or innocent or justified the situation might seem. Choose a method of carry that reliably keeps your gun hidden from public view at all times.You have no control over how a stranger will react to seeing (or learning about) your concealed handgun. He or she might become alarmed and report you to police as "a man or woman with a gun." Depending on his or her feelings about firearms, this person might be willing to maliciously embellish his or her story in attempt to have your gun seized by police or to get you arrested. An alarmed citizen who reports a "man with a gun" is going to be more credible to police than you when you're stopped because you match the suspect's description, and you are found to have a concealed handgun in your possession.Before you expose your gun in public, ask yourself: "Is this worth going to jail for?" The only time this question should warrant a "yes" response is when an adversary has at least, both ability and intent, and is actively seeking the opportunity to do you great harm.

5. DON’T LET YOUR EMOTIONS GET THE BEST OF YOU. If, despite your best efforts to the contrary, you do get into some kind of heated dispute with another person while you’re armed, never mention, imply or exhibit your gun for the purpose of intimidation or one-upmanship. You’ll simply make a bad situation worse -- for yourself (see rule #4).
...as it is as applicable as ever.

Cheers, gents!

These are excellent rules to follow, although #4 is somewhat misleading. Open carry is LEGAL in many states. You may get hassled by the police, but you won't go to jail for legal open carry.

 

[greenled]

Sorry, but from what you describe, it could be argued your brother "started it". The way I'm reading the following, "he" means your brother:

My brother was driving home and saw a real jerk weaving in and out of traffic, cutting people off, etc. He came along side and asked him what was his problem?

So, why engage the jerk in the first place?

 

[RichardInFlorida]

By getting out of the car to handle things mano a mano, your brother changed his role from victim to willing participant. The police, judges, and juries tend to see driving away and calling the police to be a more reasonable approach.

Based on the fact that his firearm was returned, I am guessing that any kind of 'brandishing' is probably not going to be filed. Although your brother came out on the wrong end of the fight, it would seem things could have wound up worse.

The main point is that things probably could have been handled a little differently, and your brother never would have been injured.

Good luck with it all.

 

[Thernlund]

So, why engage the jerk in the first place?

Hey man, sometimes you just have to call idiots out. MYOB is not always acceptable.


-T.

 

[19-3Ben]

Oh, i forgot to mention something in my first reply. I actually saw a guy driving exactly as you described just last week. He was weaving, cutting people off within a foot of their bumper at highway speed, etc...

I got behind him just long enough to get his license plate number. Then called the police and gave them the vehicle description, plate number, and location. No reason to confront him.

 

[Treo]

I'm W/ every body else on this one you escalated the incident by asking the guy what his problem is.

 

[hceptj]

Thernlund posted my reply for me...

 

[Car Knocker]

Hey man, sometimes you just have to call idiots out. MYOB is not always acceptable.

But don't whine about it if you find out that you're not the biggest, baddest bear in the woods!

 

[CWL]

If the BG had a gun instead of brass knuckles, your brother probably would not have survived the encounter.

 

[Jacka L Ope]

I agree. The "5 Rules" are not fit for all circumstances. Feel free to edit as deemed appropriate for yours.

Cheers!

 

[spyder1911]

I assume he had a cell phone? He could have called 911 and reported a negligent dangerous driver.

Yeah, In this situation I would have tried to get plate numbers and then call the police saying there is a man swerving in and out of traffic and acting in a threatening manner and he appears to be under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol and appears to be holding something in his hand. All of this is true and will easily bring the cops while keeping you and everyone else safe.

 

[19-3Ben]

Yeah, In this situation I would have tried to get plate numbers and then call the police saying there is a man swerving in and out of traffic and acting in a threatening manner and he appears to be under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol and appears to be holding something in his hand. All of this is true and will easily bring the cops while keeping you and everyone else safe.

And that is the reply I would use to the "sometimes you can't MYOB" argument.
MYOB and taking no action are NOT one and the same.
You can take action without having to directly and personally confront the ass-hole by calling the po-po.
Aside from anything else, it's more effective. To a guy like that, your brother would have just been some jerk who stopped to yell at him in traffic. if a cop pulls over the ass-hole, at least it's someone with authority.

 

[Girodin]

What man wouldn't get out and deal with the idiot?

I had a similar situation and simply drove away. I was not even slightly afraid to fight the guy and there was a part of me that really did want to fight him. In fact I was driving down to the kickboxing/BJJ gym where I work to spar ie get punched and kicked for the next hour. I actually really like fighting and is why I go to the gym to do it.

Why didn't I get out and deal with the guy? Simply put, its not worth it. No good can come from it and I can think of many bad things that could.

My life, my freedom, and my future isn't worth throwing down with some jerk on the side of the road even if they deserve it. Being smart and being the cool tough guy are not the same thing.

In the given situation our CCW drive started the confrontation was the first to produce a weapon and used bad judgment and bad tactics thoughout (he did not show great restraint or maturity, in fact the very opposite IMHO) and unfortunately he learned a tough lesson.

Sometimes MYOB may not be what you feel is best but what did he expect this agressive drive to do. Appologize for his driving and mend his evil ways because some agressive stranger confronted him. Getting the plates and calling the cops would not only have been safer/smarter it would have been more effective in changing the guys driving.

 

[MiddleAgedKen]

Sometimes, "no good deed goes unpunished" is more than just a truism. I'm sorry your brother got himself into that fix. There may have been more prudent ways he could have gone about it, but I hate to pile on a guy who tried to do what he thought was right.

 

[opd743]

While I agree that he never should have shown that he had a weapon until the time had come to use it, I can't fault him for it. I am a cop in Alabama. Down here, just having brass knuckles can get you arrested. I can't see why the guy that used them on your brother was not arrested when he was stopped. It seems to me that it falls under assault 2nd(felony) here. Might be different up there. Bad as it sounds, could have been that the cops were about to get off and did not want to do the paperwork involved in a felony arrest. I sure hope that is not the case and I hope your brother recovers and gets justice.

 

[rrruuunnn]

this is kinda interesting question for me. since, i've been in a situation like this.

i was placing an order in drive thru. someone slashed my tires. i saw the guy drop a big box cutter and charge my open window. i had my seatbelt on. i slammed the accelerator. the bg got in his truck and speed off. i think i should have chased him for his license plate.

here's, where it get's interesting, i told my friend about this. he said he would have got out of the car and confronted the bladed man.

1. i did not want to do hand to hand combat with a knifed person through a car window with my seat belt on.
2. if a passenger exited the vehicle to confront the bg, he could have been run over by the speeding truck.
3. by leaving the vehichle, one changes from victim to vigilante.

by the way, as a gun permit holder, how would it look if the bg's saw your gun, beat you up and take your gun away as a prize. if you show your gun, you can't leave it where someone can take it.

 

[Thernlund]

i was placing an order in drive thru. someone slashed my tires.

Your tires got slashed while you were at a drive thru? And you were in the car?

You have to admit, presented like that, that's pretty funny. If that happened to me I'd be to awestruck to do anything.


-T.

 

[19-3Ben]

"Hi, could I please have a buger, fries....oh darn....and a new set of BFGoodrich?"