Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by 38snapcaps, Apr 30, 2008.

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  1. conw

    conw Member

    Aug 17, 2007
    I agree with what most other people said.

    Being a high-testosterone 21 year old, I get pissed daily in traffic. Humans are territorial. But I don't use that as an excuse to take the Low Road.

    I am a very sane driver, and in fact I usually refuse to speed up even if someone seems to be getting furious at me for it. As a matter of fact, if anyone gets pissed at me it's likely because I'm driving too sanely. If they want to pull into the parking lot on my turf and assault me, they'll get what they deserve if the situation calls for defensive action, but otherwise I let them be.

    It's not too hard to understand. You should count yourself lucky that you and he are OK, and perhaps chalk it up as a lesson learned. You or he both could be hurt, maimed, dead, or in jail. Why not read Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme," which covers these situations very well?

    You can get it from for cheap.
  2. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

    Oct 8, 2004
    Farmington, AR
    The primary alteration would be to ask why you're in that situation in the first place. In the case of a sworn officer, you're there because it's your duty to be there and deal with that situation. In the case of the private citizen, the first and best defense is to avoid presenting someone intent on harming you with the opportunity to do so.

    If you get out of your car to confront the idiot rather than calling law enforcement, you've presented him with the opportunity. Bad call. Your brother is lucky in more ways than one.
  3. Stirling XD

    Stirling XD Member

    Feb 10, 2008
    Most disasters are not brought about by one simple mistake, but by several coming together at the wrong time. Your brother and the other guy both made many mistakes.

    Your brother’s mistakes:
    1. He should have got the guys plate number and called the police. This is part of their job.
    2. He should not have confronted an irrational driver. Arguing with irrational people accomplishes nothing.
    3. He shouldn’t have pulled his gun with the intent of scaring the irrational guy. Irrational people don’t scare as easily as rational people.
    4. He should have called the police after the guy got out and pounded on his car while making threats.
    5. He should have called the police when he realized he was being followed.
    6. He shouldn’t have got out of his vehicle. That shows a willingness to participate in the argument.

    The other guy’s mistakes:
    1. He drove like an idiot and endangered other drivers.
    2. He got out of his vehicle and pounded on the car of an angry driver.
    3. He threatened to physically harm the other driver.
    4. He ignored the fact that the angry driver had a gun.
    5. He followed the angry driver and pounded on his car and threatened him again.
    6. He brought brass knuckles to a gunfight.

    Some may argue that your brother shouldn’t have left his vehicle unarmed, however, IMHO that would have almost guaranteed some serious jail time. If your brother isn’t charged with anything and keeps his CWP, he should consider himself lucky.

    Those of us that carry a gun all the time need to make an extra effort to avoid these types of incidents!
  4. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Alma Illinois
    sacp81170a said;
    This is exactly right. Too many people think that the so called "stand your ground" laws mean you no longer have to exercise common sense and that you suddenly have the right to escalate a conflict that starts with rude, offensive conduct into a deadly force encounter. That's not true. All they do is remove the requirement some states used to have in the law that you retreat from an actual attack before responding in kind. The concept of mutual combat in a confrontation hasn't gone away.

    When the police investigate they will get as many versions of what happened as there are participants and witnesses. If it looks as if you escalated the situation you can expect to be charged along with the aggressor. Or if there were no serious injuries you might not be arrested at the scene, but reports and statements will be filed with the states attorney and a few weeks after you thought the incident was over, you find yourself wanted on a warrant for assault, battery or aggravated battery.

    In my experience the way mutual combat situations are handled is that neither party is charged (usually if there are no injuries and no property damage and no weapons are involved) or both parties are charged.

  5. Maximum1

    Maximum1 Member

    Nov 13, 2006
    "He was followed for several blocks and at another red light the jerk gets out of his car again, and started in pounding on the car and yelling obscenities and threats. This time my brother got out, unarmed, to deal with the guy and he gets smashed in the face with some kind of brass knuckle device, sending him to the hospital with a severe eye injury and facial lacerations."

    He shouldn't had gotten out of the car. PERIOD.


    Sep 27, 2007
    Seattle, WA
    1. should have ignored him, how did your brother know that he wasn't carrying a gun and willing to use it.

    2. whent he man got out he should have drove off

    3. he should have never brandished his firarm

    4. when he was followed he should have called the police or drove to the nearest police statsion or fire statsion

    5. he should have never got out of his car

    if your brother wants to confront poeple and be a good citizen maybe he should look into becomming a LEO instead of a hero.
  7. up_onus

    up_onus Member

    Aug 11, 2006
    Topic related

    Now, I understand "the rules" of CCW. Often, when I enter my vehicle I put my firearm (in holster) on my passenger seat as its more comfortable. If someone where to walk up to my vehicle and see the gun at a stoplight, or a "possible confrontation", would this be considered brandishing?

    Just some food for thought.
  8. atk

    atk Member

    Feb 19, 2003

    That would depend upon state law. In MA, the police would probably consider it brandishing. In other states, there are laws explicitly stating that that's a protected manner of transporting a firearm.
  9. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

    Nov 4, 2006
    This time my brother got out, unarmed, to deal with the guy and he gets smashed in the face with some kind of brass knuckle device, sending him to the hospital with a severe eye injury and facial lacerations.

    It seems your brother should have just drove off while the other guy was out of his car and dialed 911.
  10. Cougfan2

    Cougfan2 Member

    Aug 7, 2007
    Portland, OR
    If you read my recent post about almost having to draw twice on the same day you will see I was in a similar, not exact situation. I hate to second guess people ,but having been in a similar situation I was ready to draw my weapon only if absolutely necessary and DID NOT confront the aggressive driver for the precise reason that I didn't see the situation progressing further from the guy just being a jerk.

    Better to call the police unless you see someone putting someone else in imminent physical danger. Thinking back, I should probably at least called the police and not just let the incident slide.
  11. mkonops

    mkonops Member

    Mar 12, 2007
    Definitely a mistake, being a potential gunfight, but as it turned out the brother was the bigger idiot in this case. He left his vehicle unarmed to confront a lunatic, both big mistakes, and walked into a brass knuckle sandwich in the process.
  12. Texan

    Texan Member

    Feb 12, 2004
    The GREAT State of TEXAS
    Just wondering what some of you would have done in this case. Got my opinions but will reserve them to myself.

  13. Thernlund

    Thernlund Member

    Apr 12, 2007
    Phoenix, AZ
    Beating on my car? Yelling threats? I'm blocked in?

    Shot him. No question.

  14. CWL

    CWL Member

    Jan 6, 2003
    The guy stepped in front of the car, just a little tap on the gas pedal would have ended the assault with him laid-out and no-more kneecaps.
  15. Harvster

    Harvster Member

    Sep 19, 2007
    I often wish that some government agency would bestow upon me the supreme authority to enforce the removal of idiots (especially the aggressive ones) from the road. While I await the paperwork for such a task and the installation of the EMP generator in my minivan to melt their vehicles' circuit boards, I have to make due with the means currently available. The best of which is the police. Most areas have targeted enforcement of aggressive drivers. No road rage jerk is ever going to respond to someone questioning their driving with anything other than more road rage jerkitude. So until the official launch of the Golden Minivan of Justice program, keep the pistols where they belong and let the police handle the aggressive drivers.
  16. John4me05

    John4me05 Member

    Dec 8, 2007
    Alleghany County VA
    Agreed... What if your brother in well meaning had gotten a block on the guys smack or punch and drilled him... Ok then what if your brother hit him in a sweet spot that just collapsed a bone into his brain killing him...
    Your brother would be goind from defending his property to possible manslaughter charges... If your brother was ex military or trained martial arts and some pacifists were in the jury... Thats a trained weapon... Could have bad outcomes for him
  17. Sato Ord

    Sato Ord Member

    Mar 21, 2008
    Melbourne Florida
    I have noticed that carrying a weapon makes me less aggressive in any situation. It is always in the back of my mind that any situation that escalates can turn deadly in a hurry.

    I have to agree with those who said that your brother should have kept out of it in the first place. I also agree that your brother should never have displayed his weapon. Third, he should never have gotten out of his car. If the guy was following him he should have simply driven to the nearest police station and let the moron pound on his windows and call him names while he was parked there.

    I've made numerous 911 calls from my cell phone to report people driving erratically. The first thing the dispatcher always asks is if I am following the vehicle. When I say "No" they always say "Good, don't. You don't need to get further involved because it could get dangerous for you."

    Report the incident and go about your life, you've done what you can do.

    Sounds like your brother is learning a hard lesson that just having a gun doesn't make him a tough guy.
  18. buck00

    buck00 Member

    May 10, 2005
    Lower Silesia, PA
    This is where he dropped the ball. There was no reason to get out of his car and "deal with the guy."

    Unfortunately, the responding LEOs have a large amount of influence over the charges and way the investigation is handled. I'm sure this perp played the victim role and gave this story: "a guy threatened me with a gun, then got out his car and charged over... and I defended myself!" :eek:

    How can your brother prove this isn't the case? It is his word vs the perp's. I'm really sorry, sounds like your brother might go down for this one. Get a good lawyer. :(
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