Breaking: Alleged gun trafficker Senator Leland Yee pleads guilty in federal court

[agtman]

He shouldn't get anything less than life in prison.

Along with a frisky cellmate named "Large Larry."

 

[Frank Ettin]

Conclusions can be inferred from what information we do have, and modified upon availability of new information.

But that doesn't make the conclusion based on minimal information any more valid.

People draw conclusions and base opinions on all kinds of insufficient, specious, erroneous, and/or misunderstood information all the time. We sure think that the anti-gun folks do. But conclusions drawn and opinions based on insufficient, specious, erroneous, and/or misunderstood information are still at best doubtful and at worst nonsense.

 

[General Geoff]

But that doesn't make the conclusion based on minimal information any more valid.

It doesn't matter whether our conclusion here is valid. This is an internet forum, not a court of law. What does matter is that we discuss this outcome critically, because while we cannot, as you have repeatedly stated, know everything the prosecutor knows, we also can't know what motives are driving the prosecutor's actions.

 

[JRH6856]

I think that's the third time you've completely dismissed me out of hand...

Some Moderators are mediators, some are arbitrators.

 

[Frank Ettin]

It doesn't matter whether our conclusion here is valid. This is an internet forum, not a court of law....

I guess that some people don't care about knowledge, understanding, reality, etc. Maybe that's why there's so much ignorance around.

I always care about the validity of information, conclusions, and opinions. Bad information, conclusions, or opinions serve no purpose.

...What does matter is that we discuss this outcome critically, because while we cannot, as you have repeatedly stated, know everything the prosecutor knows, we also can't know what motives are driving the prosecutor's actions.

How can anyone discuss something seriously and critically if he doesn't have sufficient information to form valid conclusions? Without facts, a discussion can't be anything more than a spinning of tales and a weaving of fantasy. And since you can't know everything the prosecutor knows and can't know what motivates his actions, anything you say about either is nothing but conjecture.

 

[General Geoff]

How can anyone discuss something seriously and critically if he doesn't have sufficient information to form valid conclusions? Without facts, a discussion can't be anything more than a spinning of tales and a weaving of fantasy. And since you can't know everything the prosecutor knows and can't know what motivates his actions, anything you say about either is nothing but conjecture.

Nobody knows everything about anything. Therefore discussion about anything is nothing but conjecture.

You are not the authority on what constitutes sufficient knowledge.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Nobody knows everything about anything. Therefore discussion about anything is nothing but conjecture...

Not really. There is, in fact, a recognized discipline, epistemology, which is a branch of philosophy and studies the origin, nature, methods, and limits of human knowledge. There is also the scientific method.

There are processes for testing and confirming to what extent we do, or do not, know something to some degree of certainty. Part of dealing effectively with important matters in business, law, science, medicine, technology, etc., is understanding an recognizing how to know what we do, and do not, actually know.

...You are not the authority on what constitutes sufficient knowledge.

Actually, when it comes to matters within my particular area of expertise, such as evaluating a lawyer's decision to accept a settlement, I am.

 

[barnbwt]

"Actually, when it comes to matters within my particular area of expertise, such as evaluating a lawyer's decision to accept a settlement, I am."
Excellent, so perhaps you can answer this question I've have no luck in determining on my own; will the State/Federal investigators evidence be made public after Yee is sentenced/put to bed, or does the fact it never made it into a trial mean it remains sealed?

It seems like such a basic question that I hoped I could find an answer easier than this, but I assume it has some Latin or otherwise uninformative term for a name . I ask, because the tin-foil theory that Yee *might* be tied to other corruption with assorted state and federal officials would seem to encourage light prosecution in exchange for a plea without trial, if it meant the apparent thousands of documents, tape recordings, and interviews would remain under seal with investigators for 'ongoing investigations' for some indeterminate length of time (in which case we would never be in a position to know what all was considered by the prosecution in their decision to take a plea deal)

TCB

 

[Piper106]

I guess 'great minds' (barnbwt and I) think alike...

I find it interesting that the US Justice department during the period it was being 'guided' by Eric Holder would be investigating fellow Democrat Leland Yee. Based on what we think we know about Fast and Furious, stone walling (without prosecution) 'a little' weapons smuggling by Yee would have been no big deal for Holder and crew. Since it seemed that Eric Holder didn't breath unless Obama gave his OK, one might assume that Obama gave the green light to run a sting operation to catch Yee and then prosecute him. My question is what did Yee do (or not do) to gain the rath of Obama???

 

[Frank Ettin]

...will the State/Federal investigators evidence be made public after Yee is sentenced/put to bed, or does the fact it never made it into a trial mean it remains sealed?

...I ask, because the tin-foil theory that Yee *might* be tied to other corruption with assorted state and federal officials would seem to encourage light prosecution in exchange for a plea without trial, if it meant the apparent thousands of documents, tape recordings, and interviews would remain under seal with investigators for 'ongoing investigations' for some indeterminate length of time ....

Most likely not, at least with respect to a lot of the information, even if there are no ongoing investigations.

Under the Freedom of Information Act various categories of information are exempt from the requirement that it be furnished on request:

Freedom of Information Act Exemptions

The Freedom of Information Act entitles the following exemptions on documents being requested by the public:

1. Those documents properly classified as secret in the interest of national defense or foreign policy;
   
   
2. Related solely to internal personnel rules and practices;
   
   
3. Specifically exempted by other statutes;
   
   
4. A trade secret or privileged or confidential commercial or financial information obtained from a person;
   
   
5. A privileged inter-agency or intra-agency memorandum or letter;
   
   
6. A personnel, medical, or similar file the release of which would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy;
   
   
7. Compiled for law enforcement purposes, the release of which
   
   
   • could reasonably be expected to interfere with law enforcement proceedings,
     
     
   • would deprive a person of a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication,
     
     
   • could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy,
     
     
   • could reasonably be expected to disclose the identity of a confidential source,
     
     
   • would disclose techniques, procedures, or guidelines for investigations or prosecutions, or
     
     
   • could reasonably be expected to endanger an individual's life or physical safety;
   
   
8. Contained in or related to examination, operating, or condition reports about financial institutions that the SEC regulates or supervises; or
   
   
9. And those documents containing exempt information about gas or oil wells.

http://www.sec.gov/foia/nfoia.htm

Even in that absence of any ongoing investigation, things in the prosecutor's files like inter- or intra-agency memoranda, including a lawyer's notes and other work-product would continue to be privileged. It would also be conceivable that the files would include information related to confidential informants or information the disclosure of which would violate some innocent person's privacy interests.

So any FOIA request is likely to produce a heavily redacted file even in the absence of other related, ongoing investigations.

 

[General Geoff]

So any FOIA request is likely to produce a heavily redacted file even in the absence of other related, ongoing investigations.

So in other words, there is zero point, according to you, in discussing and evaluating this plea bargain at all, because the knowledge which you claim we need in order to come to a sound conclusion, is not and will not be forthcoming.

Might as well never question any decision that an official makes based on privileged knowledge.

 

[barnbwt]

"Most likely not, at least with respect to a lot of the information, even if there are no ongoing investigations."
Thanks for the prompt answer, I thought as much (granted, I've never really thought about that very basic bit of court-process until the last day or so). So in a sense, there could be a conflict of interest in this plea deal, assuming the prosecution's delight at nailing a celebrity could be overshadowed by corruption. Love the oil/gas well clause (but no mineral mines?). Makes sense, at least from the perspective of preserving techniques of operation/investigation, that they would keep all unreleased information under seal. Still seems odd they would go to all the trouble of compiling all this information stemming from man-years of investigation work, and not do anything with it. I guess we just have to assume that this is all leading to a massive RICO indictment of the entire bay area political structure...until that doesn't happen. Well, it happened in NYC and NJ once, so anything's possible.

"My question is what did Yee do (or not do) to gain the wrath of Obama???"
I doubt it is anything like this so much as his escalating criminality was becoming a threatening embarrassment (much like Blagojevich selling Senate seats) or obvious enough to tip off honest investigators (my theory). I would be interested to hear from those with an ear to the ground for local politics there, who has replaced Yee in the political machine, as that could also be telling. Palace intrigue, and what all.

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

"Might as well never question any decision that an official makes based on privileged knowledge."

Hey, now; that's become a very important principle in American governance, mister! (secret congressional panels, secret courts, secret executive edicts...) Power derives from the consent of the governed except in matters of national security, dontcha know

TCB

 

[Frank Ettin]

....there is zero point, according to you, in discussing and evaluating this plea bargain at all, because the knowledge which you claim we need in order to come to a sound conclusion, is not and will not be forthcoming.

Might as well never question any decision that an official makes based on privileged knowledge.

Never is a long time, and everything always depends on all the circumstances. But a general rule about everything is that with regard to important matters there is zero point to making decisions or drawing conclusion, or forming opinions based on inadequate evidence, assumptions or guesses.

I've observed over the years that many people are too quick to jump to conclusions and too lackadaisical about requiring evidence, especially when the conjecture reinforces their particular cherished beliefs. That is what's know as confirmation bias.

 

[Robert]

Oh enough. Bickering about how you feel or think the law is and how the law and prosecution actually works is dragging this far far off topic.