Bringing a gun to a tire-iron fight

[ReadyontheRight]

I'd like some ideas on how to handle a strange situation.

You are visiting a friend's apartment near a University. You walk down the hallway through a group of guys standing around. You then come upon another group of guys standing down the hall. You now figure out that it's two groups of guys (gangs?...on campus?) who are going to fight. You say "I'm not with them, I just need to get through to my friend's apartment". The main BG says "OK, but go back that way and walk around outside". You turn to do so and he hits you in the head with a hidden tire iron. You wake up in the hospital. The police never find the guy w/ the tire iron.

Some questions:

1. How could you best have avoided getting hit? There's often people in the hallways for parties, etc. and you were already close to the guy when you realized it was a fight.

2. How could CCW have helped you?

3. Is there any "evidence" (even from HCI or any of those who can't be bothered by facts) that fewer gun control laws would have led to this idiot carrying a gun rather than a tire iron?

4. On the other side -- is there any evidence from Lott or others that specifically shows that "more guns less crime" lowers this kind of gang violence?

I'm in the middle of a debate with a pro-gun/anti-CCW friend who had this happen to him in college. One of his contentions is that he's glad the idiot that hit him w/ the tire iron didn't have a gun. He just doesn't get the argument that a criminal is a criminal and it's unlikely this guy could possibly be both a legal CCW holder and a fight-starter for long in the unlikely event that he jumped through all the hoops for CCW.

 

[schadenfreude]

A very simple rule would help with that.

"Don't turn your back on the enemy."

Which is followed by

"Everyone is your enemy until proven otherwise."

 

[TheeBadOne]

"Don't turn your back on the enemy."

Nuff said. Don't even approach them, just leave.

 

[cordex]

Nuff said. Don't even approach them, just leave.

Good advice.

CCW can't help in every situation. Often avoidance is the only policy that will keep you safe.

 

[Smoke]

It seems to show a low level of situational awareness to position yourself between two opposing forces before "the light clicks on".

A gun wouldn't have prevented anything happening to your friend.

Shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Smoke

 

[sanchezero]

It amazes me that there are people who will willingly turn their backs on armed, angry people they don't know.

Nothing would have helped that idiot at that point. Hopefully you'll be able to educate him a bit and he won't be such a total moron if something like this happens again.

 

[clubsoda22]

I happen to live on a campus where stuff like that is a reality.

You are visiting a friend's apartment near a University. You walk down the hallway through a group of guys standing around. You then come upon another group of guys standing down the hall. You now figure out that it's two groups of guys (gangs?...on campus?) who are going to fight. You say "I'm not with them, I just need to get through to my friend's apartment".

sounds reasonable enough

The main BG says "OK, but go back that way and walk around outside".

Standing at a safe distance say, "sorry buddy, but i don't have the time or inclination to argue this with you. Excuse me." and motion for him to get out of your way.

If he lets you pass, keep your eye on him and pivot as you walk by so you can keep him in your sight. If he pulls his tire iron and proceeds to threaten you, use your best dirty harry line. "I have (insert mag capacity) friends that say you drop your tire iron, they're smaller than you, but a lot faster." Personally, I'd prefer not pulling a gun, so i'd just mace the whole bunch of them and tell the opposing gang that "they're all yours." Then i'd have a good belly laugh.

Edit: This last paragraph is satire, i do not suggest doing anything dirty harry like in real life, nor do i suggest allying yourself with one gang to sway the odds....duh

 

[Ankeny]

Smoke nailed it, poor situational awareness. When you carry a gun your attitude changes, or at least it better. When you know you have deadly force at your disposal, you become more aware of your surroundings and your situational awareness becomes rather keen. You will do anything at all times to avoid a deadly encounter. Anyone who has any business carrying a gun would have never placed themself in the position to get clobbered.

 

[sanchezero]

Standing at a safe distance say, "sorry buddy, but i don't have the time or inclination to argue this with you. Excuse me." and motion for him to get out of your way.

Sure, antagonize and then walk thru the crowd of armed douchbags. Good choice.

If he lets you pass, keep your eye on him and pivot as you walk by so you can keep him in your sight. If he pulls his tire iron and proceeds to threaten you, use your best dirty harry line. "I have (insert mag capacity) friends that say you drop your tire iron, they're smaller than you, but a lot faster." Personally, I'd prefer not pulling a gun, so i'd just mace the whole bunch of them and tell the opposing gang that "they're all yours." Then i'd have a good belly laugh.

Oh, good stuff . Good luck to ya, soda.

 

[artherd]

I would never have walked past the first group of guys in the first place.

Having a CCW or not, your friend walked right into an awful dead-end situation. Had I been carrying, I would not have pulled when surrounded. That's a good way to die in a hail of gunfire.


I also would NEVER have turned my back on the hoodlums, nor would I have done what they said to do. Withought antagonizing them, I would have found a way to continue forward. "Aw, c'mon man, <looks over shoulder> HOLEY ????! <run forward to improve my tactical scenario, if they brandish a weapon, shoot them>


Last point:
A tire iron or a gun, either one is a deadly weapon. If the perp wants to end your life with it, he can. They are no different.


Basic situational awareness will simply keep you OUT of such situations.

 

[Jeff White]

clubsoda22,
Would you have challenged the dirtbag if you'd have been unarmed? If not, why not?

Jeff

 

[Moparmike]

I am guessing the friend never knew that he was armed with a tire iron. Sometimes s**t happens.

 

[clubsoda22]

do i have to post in big red letters when something is satire?

Anyway, there is a point. With gang members, generally being passive ends in you getting your @$$ beat. Be on the aggressive end of assertive and they'll generally respect you. I've used that successfully on many occasions. I had one rather large black guy call me a f*ggot and start giving me crap, so i asked him if he'd take offence to me calling him n*gger. He got in my face, asked me what i just said. I repeated it verbatum and he backed down. I didn't freak out at him, and my keeping my cool, staying seated in my chair, i was far more intimidating than if i had jumpped to my feet and confronted him. He assumed I had an ace in the hole and wisely decided to walk away. I left not wanting to wait for him to come back. I wasn't armed in any of the encounters i had.

Here is exactly how i'd approach the situation. Walk by and say nothing more than "excuse me, fellas" unless confronted. If confronted, screw politeness, politeness is what got you beat in the back of the head with a tire iron in the first place. Tell him to move his @$$ and let you through. The guy will assume you have an ace in the hole and wisely realize that it's not worth continuing.

Politeness doesn't work with some people. Saying please and thank you to a bunch of gang bangers is a good way to make them feel like they are in charge. These guys are like a bunch of junkyard dogs, they can smell fear. If you act like a scared little man they'll treat you like a scared little man. If you treat them with confidence, they'll wonder why you're not scared and generally not screw with you.

Lessons from the streets: Acting with confidence and being assertive keeps you out of more trouble than it gets you into.

The whole dirty harry thing was satire, so, does that answer your question, jeff?

 

[Edward429451]

Tell him to move his @$$ and let you through. The guy will assume you have an ace in the hole and wisely realize that it's not worth continuing.

This actually worked for me back in columbus one time but I now think I was foolhardy. I was mad enough at some, uh, folks that I was not prejudiced against, yet was experianced with, shall we say, for break dancing on my parked car. I yelled at them and they all backed down immediately. Heard one of em say he's got a gun lets go. Lucky me.

You would mace a crowd of bangers? Thats idiotic in my mind.

I'd just leave the other direction in your scenario. Ego means nothing to survival.

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

 

[clubsoda22]

You would mace a crowd of bangers? Thats idiotic in my mind.

I believe that i've already explined that it was satirical in nature.

You are visiting a friend's apartment near a University. You walk down the hallway through a group of guys standing around. You then come upon another group of guys standing down the hall. You now figure out that it's two groups of guys (gangs?...on campus?) who are going to fight

Everyone who says "i'd just turn around" didn't read it. You are in between the groups. Sorry, you're stuck. And i'll call anyone a fool who says that their situational awareness is such that they never pass withing 10 feet of another living individual ever. People stand in hallways. It was non threatening untill you got stuck between them.

The solution is to continue on with your business.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

It seems to show a low level of situational awareness to position yourself between two opposing forces before "the light clicks on".

Exactly. It's been kind of hard to tell him this since he has a very positive view of people.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

When you carry a gun your attitude changes, or at least it better.

Bingo. A gun would not have helped, but the training and thinking involved in responsibly handling a gun would have helped.

Kind of off the subject, but I took the late Daryl Mulroy's Plus-P training here in Minneapolis. One of the things that struck me most was when he showed me a "Beware of Dog" sticker and said "You're spending $100+ on this class, you've got a $500 gun, but do you have one of these 99 cent stickers? Because it will stop many situations before they happen."

 

[MrFreeze]

The guy will assume you have an ace in the hole and wisely realize that it's not worth continuing.

To me, this is a very unwise assumption. Hoping that someone will think you are bigger and badder leaves too much to chance. I don't disagree with the part about being assertive, but to a certain extent you are walking a very fine line. Not everyone in this world thinks logically, or sanely for that matter.

Here's another suggestion...why not knock on one of the doors in the hallway and see if someone will let you ride it out in their room...then call 911, etc.

If he knew that these two groups were "gangbangers" when he was in the middle of them, why not go back to the group he originally walked through? They know he's not part of the situation. Why get close enough to the second group of "known" gangbangers that they can hit you?

Travis

 

[clubsoda22]

To me, this is a very unwise assumption. Hoping that someone will think you are bigger and badder leaves too much to chance. I don't disagree with the part about being assertive, but to a certain extent you are walking a very fine line. Not everyone in this world thinks logically, or sanely for that matter.

Those type of people will probably attack you regardless of what you do.

 

[MrFreeze]

Agreed, Club. That's why I said it would be hard to trump some of those types of people with an ace in the hole. The threat of death or bodily harm just doesn't phase some of 'em.

Travis

 

[clubsoda22]

a lot of stuff on the streets is about respect, and respect out there doesn't come from saying please and thank you. Standing my ground has kept me out of a lot of bad situations.

Every so often you get some crackhead that is just set on beating your @$$. In that case, be glad you already took an assertive posture.

 

[Ryder]

I've faced a tire iron being shaken in my face before. It wasn't that scarey. Sure didn't turn my back on it though!

A tire iron is somewhat heavy. In order to be hit with significant force the person needs to preload the swing. A swing with something heavy is slow and easily blocked. I wasn't armed (used to be illegal in those days) but yes believe I would have backed off and drawn if I had been carrying.

I just calmly waited until the person shifted their focus for a micro-second and attempted a snatch as it was hovering off the end of my nose. Didn't work but it was much less of a danger once I had partial possesion. A second jerk produced no better results so I pulled steadily (faking a tug of war) then reversed force and pushed the person off balance with a simultaneous kick to the mid section. The offending hands slid off as though they were greased.

End of situation? Noooooooo! I heard from the investigating officer (they pressed charges against me and my presence was requested) that there was a 3 foot long section of 2X4 sneaking up from the rear (the shift in focus!). I had immediately chucked the tire iron out into a pond and re-oriented myself 90° from my original postion once the original threat was rolling on the ground. Guess Mr 2X4 decided not to join his partner in stupidity.

I still wonder why the cops didn't arrest the attacker after they heard my side of the story??? Oh well, at least I was left to be minding my own business again.

As far as them owning a gun and attacking me with that due to increased probability of CCW laws.. I don't really care as long as I have the opportunity to protect myself. A deadly weapon is a deadly weapon. Matters little to me what they use but I must add that the sort of person who obtains a CCW is not the type of person who would resort to one for an assault on an innocent person.

 

[Edward429451]

I believe that i've already explined that it was satirical in nature.

Whoops, So ya did. Sorry.

 

[DJ E.]

How would 2 gangs have a rumble in a hallway


I am all for being assertive, but in that situation, maybe not. Most gangsters, maybe 60% are really little girls when they are by themselves or with only one friend. Put them with the whole crew and their cajones grows big time. On top of that, another rival crew is there. How would that make them look to the rivals if they let you talk to them like that and just walk right through them? Talk about losing face. I think you're just asking for a beat down right about now.

I like the idea of knocking on a door and trying to ride it out. If that wasn't an option, I might just backpeddle a few steps away from them and then turn around and haul ???. Sometimes there's just not much you can do.

Me thinks they hit your friend over the head to show their toughness to the rivals. Not much you can do if that was the case. Wrong place, wrong time. My $1.50.

DJ

 

[artherd]

There's also always the strategy of coming off with a huge ego. When he says you can't pass, look at him like he's a ????ing worm, and you're the biggest drug dealer in town. Say "Do you know who the ???? I am?! Get the ???? out of my way RIGHT NOW you insolent ????!"

If they don't know who you are, they'll at least pause for a few seconds. This may be enough time for you to gain the tactical advantage.

If they subside, just act really indignant, and call the cops. If they resume (which infront of a rival gang, they might), deal with them as nessicary (and remenber your tactical reloads!)