British Taliban Rifle

[Mauserguy]

Check out the rifle in the Youtube video, The Battle of Marjah. When the Marine turns over the corpse at 58:42, you can clearly see that the Taliban has an Enfield P14, standing against the wall in the background. It could be a US M17, but it looks like it's got a disk in the stock, common in the British guns. The Marine then identified it as an 8MM Mauser. Oh well. The old guns are still out there.
Mauserguy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1zBZWGKJJY&feature=g-vrec

 

[gunnutery]

I just searched both P14 and M1917 and they look identical to me. Unfortunately it's probably already been cut down or melted by now. For the guy that died with it, it might has well have been 8mm considering he had a bunch of 5.56 which was way off. Though I wonder if he was hoping to use the Enfield to kill Allied personell in hopes of upgrading to a full auto weapon.

 

[rugerdude]

I found a P14 in a weapons cache just this last spring. It was actually kinda funny because as soon as I saw it I said "hey that's a P14 Enfield" and then I was like......"how the hell did I just know that?" Another platoon's platoon sergeant also erroneously identified it as a mauser. I guess it's all some people know.

In 2010 (very near Marjeh actually) we also found a No.4Mk.1 Lee Enfield among a couple of AK's. It was actually a U.S. made Savage rifle and the "U.S. Property" mark on the receiver had been ground off. That one is currently sitting in a room on Camp Pendleton as a war trophy.

The .303 is apparently not incredibly uncommon over there.

We also kept finding decent quantities of 7.62x25 tokarev ammo but never any weapons that fired it. My first though was that the pistols were more easily hidden but I never saw why they'd need hundreds of rounds if all they had was a pistol.

 

[Mauserguy]

Rugerdude, you have a heck of a story.
Mauserguy

 

[AethelstanAegen]

P14s and Enfields (especially No4s) are not all that uncommon in that neck of the woods (even more so in Afghanistan). Enfield No4s are naturally more common. An awful lot of them found their way into Afghanistan during the 1979-1989 Soviet-Afghan War compliments of many anti-Soviet governments. They work rather well given the terrain lends itself well to longer range engagements and at the time of the Soviet-Afghan War, the .303 was quite effective against Soviet body armor (it also generally had the Russian AK-74s outranged). That said, I think it was often used as a weapon to get a better weapon. There's also a pretty healthy local trade in homemade No4s (often known as Khyber Pass Enfields).

 

[Ash]

That was a P14 because of the disc (and because of the long British history there, unlike our more recent one). It was modified some, but not much. I love how the "brave" warriors always seem to hide with women and children. It's smart to be sure, counting on the nobility of an enemy to spare the innocents - something these men would not have done themselves.

But in any case, that's definitely a P14. As to not knowing what it was, I'll cut the guys some slack. It is a Mauser derivative (though 8mm Mauser would be less likely in that neighborhood than an Enfield).

 

[SgtGenDanbo]

That's pretty interesting. When I was over there a few years ago we found several Lee-Enfields as well as .303 casings randomly on the ground in a few villages. My favorite find was an old British trapdoor rifle. I'm not sure what kind it was exactly, it was pretty badly deteriorated but there was a pretty big battle with the British Army in the area in the late 1800's so I suspect it was leftover from that. In the same area I found quite a few old buttons and pieces of equipment from British uniforms too. Speaking of old guns, I recall seeing a picture of an insurgent in Iraq taken in 2004 or 2005 that was carrying a STG-44, I've always wondered where he managed to find ammo for that thing.

 

[Ian]

A while back I got an email from a fellow serving in Afghanistan who had found a Soviet SGM in a buried arms cache...

 

[HorseSoldier]

We also kept finding decent quantities of 7.62x25 tokarev ammo but never any weapons that fired it. My first though was that the pistols were more easily hidden but I never saw why they'd need hundreds of rounds if all they had was a pistol.

Out in RC-West we had a a PPSh-41 in the toys collection part of our arms room that the guys we RIP'ed in after had found the year before. I was salivating to put it through its paces on the range, but all we had was the gun itself, without any mags, and nobody could seem to find a source for the ammo.

Same situation with a DP machine gun the same guys had acquired (I think from the same cache).

 

[rugerdude]

Yeah, those guys will basically use anything they can get their hands on. Other notable things I found were some buried AK mags along with empty cases and a small amount of powder and primers, as if they planned on doing some reloading.

I also found a couple of 14.5x115mm casings in a guy's yard and my face probably looked a little like this for a second. We had also gotten reports that they had a ZPU in the area. So it was a rare victory for military intel.

I loved it when we would take fire and guys would be saying "They've got a PKM over there" and I would just think "Oh c'mon, that could be a PK, RP-46, RPK, RPD, SG-43, SGM, DPM, etc.." I was always on the lookout for the oddball stuff though

Most common though were 50's pattern Russian AK-47's with the stocks removed. We found one Chinese Type 56 buried in the ground that had never been fired and was caked in grease. I always imagine that we must have gotten rid of the owner before he could ever dig it up and use it

 

[Husker_Fan]

There have been lots of fighting there for many years. In 80 years, there may be a thread here about Afgans are fighting with antique M4s.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

My favorite find was an old British trapdoor rifle.

Almost certainly a Martini-Henry. Like the Enfield No4s, there's a lot of homemade versions made over there but there are certainly originals from the Anglo-Afghan wars of the late 1800s.

 

[RPRNY]

I loved it when we would take fire and guys would be saying "They've got a PKM over there" and I would just think "Oh c'mon, that could be a PK, RP-46, RPK, RPD, SG-43, SGM, DPM, etc.." I was always on the lookout for the oddball stuff though

That reminds me of my Brother-in-Law telling me about a visit to a fire-base in Vietnam that his platoon was providing perimeter security for by a General Officer. As their position began taking artillery, he turned to my BIL and asked "Lieutenant, what is that artillery piece firing on us?", to which My BIL is reported to have replied, "We call it a BFG, now get your head down!".

 

[kBob]

Since he said Trapdoor I assumed he meant a Snider. I seem to recall that Churchill meantioned them being in use in the Afgan in his correspondences.

-kBob

 

[Scrumbag]

Rugerdude, correct me if I'm wrong but the Mujahadin were originally supplied with mil-surp Enfields by the CIA when their operations in Afghan were beginning and meant to be deniable.

It isn't surprising that there are lots of .303s up there. The then Indian Army (Which encompassed troops from Pakistan, India, Nepal and Kashmir and perhaps Afghans too) was equipped with British equipment in 1947 when the British left the sub continent.

If I'm also not mistaken, India was still using .303 Enfield type rifles for large numbers of troops until the Sino-Indian war which led to the creation of the Ishapore .308W shooting Enfield design as a stop gap.

So, I guess .303 is still popular up there.

ATB,

Scrummy

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Since he said Trapdoor I assumed he meant a Snider. I seem to recall that Churchill meantioned them being in use in the Afgan in his correspondences.

-kBob

That's actually a very good point. I had falling block in my head but you're right, a Snider would fit the trapdoor description better.

 

[DougW]

Well worn P14 (#3mk1). The steel has been sand blasted by the environment, and the volley sight is visible on the left side just belot the lower stock band on the left side of the forearm.

 

[Nico Testosteros]

I've read, in the book Ghost Wars I believe, that the CIA sent hundreds of thousands of Enfields to the mujahedin in the early days of their resistance to the Soviets. I see Scrumbag beat me to this interesting fact.

 

[rugerdude]

Wow, yeah I did not know that. I did some research after digging the one up and it seemed to me that it was one we gave the Brits, but I guess it could also very well be from that. Very very interesting information. Thanks for that!

 

[Ignition Override]

About four years ago during the terrorist attacks in Mumbai, India hotels etc, either Indian Army or certain police/security personnel still carried Enfield #4 rifles.

This was on tv news videos.

As for Afghans wanting to upgrade from a LE to an AK etc, one of the major puchasers of AK-47s reportedly has been the US government.
Whether they were supplied to the Afghans or Iraqis (if true) maybe some of you recent veterans or DoD civilians know the situation.

 

[BHP FAN]

those looked like the Ishapore Arsenal .308 Indian made copy of the MK. III to me, not the .303 number four rifle.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Back in the early 80's Gun Digest did a write up on Afghan arms and SMLE's were the most common and most copied arms prior to the muhajadeen getting their hands on Soviet equipment.

Before we started arming them with modern weapons anything that would go bang was going over the border. Surplus rifles of all sorts in .303 were no doubt in big demand.

 

[Scrumbag]

Re P14s.

As I understand it, they were made basically for British/Commonwealth/Empire troops as there weren't enough factories set up to make Enfields. US plants coudl easily tool up to make P14s however. Interestingly is perhaps the only Mauser type actions that are cock on close. As I understand it, this was important for the Brits and the "Mad-minute" firing technique. (This is if memory serves so if am wrong please feel free to correct me)

ATB,

Scruumy

 

[kBob]

Pre 98 mausers cocked on closing, so in 1913 when the first model P13s were build ( a british 7mm experimental cartridge) were built with the idea of replacing the SMLE MOST mausers likely still cocked on closing. With WWI Britan reworked the P13 design to use .303 and dubed it the P14. They contracted two US firms to build the P14 as they could not do so quickly enough to make a difference in WWI. Once that contract was filled these plants redesigned the P13 to use .30-06 to assist the US as Springfield rifles were not being produced quickly enough for US needs creating the M1917 rifle also known as the P17.

I had about a quarter hour to speak personally (not a group or board)to General Suffee formerly of the Afgan Army before the Soviet invasion while he was touring the US to get political and physical aid for those resisting the invasion. He told me the Martinis were put to use in .450-577 caliber to attack SOviet Helos. Specifically he stated that the low velocity and long length of the .450-577 slug mean it would most likely be struck by a tail rotor blade if fired through the fan area. He claimed several Soviet helos making air assaults had been brought down by such.....he then went on to explain to me the need for Stinger missiles and even knew of the then experimental opitical recognition models that could do frontal attacks on aircraft better (darn Av Leak!) as a field test for us.

I think those people would have put to use Red Rider BB guns if they had to at that time.

I believe the US bought Red Chinese AKs from the Chinese Communist during that period for issue to the muji.

-kBob

 

[henschman]

And here we are at war with the muj, barely a decade later. Very well thought out foreign aid there. It is the kind of thing our government specializes in.