bubba VS. sporter

[s&w 24]

A bit ago a few (in my opinion) miss informed people were calling a nice sharp looking 1903 sporter that had a good bluing job and a great looking bishop stock on it a bubba gun!
Lets keep these two types of firearms seperate and not equal. A rifle that is in the bubba pile is the one some one took a band saw to both ends, threw out the handguard, and stapled an old belt on it for a sling. A sporter is something that was a common mil-surp rifle that was at minimum put together by a skilled basement gunsmith with all the lines and class (some times more) of an early weatherby or winchester.

If any of you fine ladys and gentlemen can add a few pictures to bring home these points please do and with that class is dismissed.

 

[R.W.Dale]

In my opinion if a SAW is used at any point on the rifle then from that point on it's a Bubbafication.











And just for comparison the ONLY bubba in my collection

 

[armoredman]

Any radical, irreversable changes to an out of print military rifle is a Bubba job. People have the right to do what they wish with thier own property, but they will still be bubba-izing by hacking stocks, removing permanently mounted bayonets to file off front sights, etc. These rifles will never be built again, and all we have is all we have. I read now of rare Arisakas being found with intact mums, but hacked and slashed to unrecognizable states by unknowing Bubbas, back when barrels full of these were available for dirt right after the war.
Once again, I do state people have the right to do whatever they want with thier own property, but I would not do that, even those my Mosins and Enfield may not be considered rare or collectable now.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I read now of rare Arisakas being found with intact mums, but hacked and slashed to unrecognizable states by unknowing Bubbas,

But if none of them had been hacked up then they wouldn't be rare now would they. If all of the Mausers that were brought into this country in the past century were still in military configuration then they would still be selling for an inflation corrected $25 a piece.

If that were the case then collecting milsurps would be like collecting benie babies, Fun? Maybe an Investment No. So please be mindfull that Bubba has been setting the prices and level of investment return in the milsurp market for a number of years now.

 

[fal 4 me]

But if none of them had been hacked up then they wouldn't be rare now would they

If your talking about the Arisaka's with the mum, you are wrong. After the Japanese surrendered, soldiers were ordered to destroy the mum. Few rifles survived the war with the mum, which makes a bubba'd rifle all the more heartbreaking to a collector.

 

[Gewehr98]

I loathe the hacking up of milsurps.

However, if the hacking has been done prior to my acquiring it, then I'll do my best either to restore it, or make it a functional piece of sporting art.

A 1917 Amberg Gewehr98 in 8mm:

 

[Prince Yamato]

I say anything that "sporterizes" a military rifle or takes a military rifle and reconfigures it in a manner that it would never be configured in (presumably rendering the weapon 'ugly' in the eyes of the majority), such as the T4 SKS stocks or painting AKs in urban cammo.

 

[Essex County]

I totaly agree with s&w 24. A lot of younger folks weren't around back in the 50's and 60's when this was a viable option for those who could'nt pony up the price of a new model 70...........Essex

 

[R.W.Dale]

I totaly agree with s&w 24. A lot of younger folks weren't around back in the 50's and 60's when this was a viable option for those who could'nt pony up the price of a new model 70...........Essex

On that same thought, A lot of people don't realize than in the 50's a Win 70 cost almost as much as an average worker earned in a couple of months!
Combine that with dirt cheap military actions and it was a no brainer to pay a gunsmith a resonable sum to build a nice sporter.

Today the roles are reversed where sporting rifles are relitivly dirt cheap and paying a gunsmith to build a military sporter costs out the nose.

If your talking about the Arisaka's with the mum, you are wrong.

I see more Arisakas with the mum intact than I do without, The Sporter I pictured above still has one.

 

[Cosmoline]

It's a fair point. Starting as early as the 1890's, some very good gunsmiths were sporterizing military rifles. I've seen some of these, and the work on them is superlative. Engravings, perfectly balanced stocks, excellent sights, etc. Through the 1950's you could still find smiths turning vintage military rifles into high quality sporterized rifles. Indeed IIRC Weatherby got its start sporterizing old Mauser actions. But hold one of these next to a bubba garage job and you'll see the differences instantly.

Another distinction I've thought should be in place is between garage hack jobs and what I call "folk rifles." The folk rifle is a vintage rifle that was modified to suit the particular needs of the typically dirt poor person who owned it. It could be an Indian gun or a trapper's rifle. They often have carvings on the stock and added decorations in keeping with the ethnic group the owner belonged to. These are almost always tossed in with the garage crud, but IMHO they should be treated differently.

 

[telomerase]

Another distinction I've thought should be in place is between garage hack jobs and what I call "folk rifles." The folk rifle is a vintage rifle that was modified to suit the particular needs of the typically dirt poor person who owned it.

Well, there you go. We Indians, trappers, and gene-vector technologists are in a special class of the picturesquely poverty-stricken that protects us from going to Limbo for actually using a milsurp or carving a Vif sequence on its stock.

 

[Cosmoline]

Actually, I'm talking about rifles modified in the past, before WWII and mostly before WWI. Anyway out of all the more modern bubba jobs I've seen, none have even resembled the old folk rifles. They're not an expression of local culture, they're a crude attempt to turn a military surplus rifle into a Remchester. You won't find carvings on the stock, brass tack decorations or any interesting modifications.

 

[Skofnung]

It seems that we are at a weird period of history.

In the past, American military guns were sold off as surplus and nothing was thought of it. I have a reprint of a Sears & Roebucks catalog from 1903 in which you could buy a surplus Sharps Rifle in 50-70 for $2.90, a Spencer Carbine in .56-52 for $3.65 or a “cut down musket” ( an 1863 Springfield with the forestock cut off) for $2.75. Compare that to a brand new Winchester 1894 in .30-30 smokeless for $14.75. As far as I can tell, a dollar nowadays would translate to about a nickel back then, so you do the math.

Anyway, my late father used to tell me about being able to find Old Enfield Rifled muskets and other old guns for ridiculously low prices all the way up into the mid to late 1960’s. It seems around that time that folks started “appreciating” historical objects. As time went on, later and later dated firearms became more and more valuable. Perhaps the turning up of anti-gun rhetoric had something to do with this? I don’t know…

Whatever the case, the movement to keep milsurps in as issued condition is a fairly new thing as far as far as I can tell, and I do find it interesting. I first noticed people complaining about bubba guns 10 years ago or so, and in the time since then the frequency of the complaints has grown.

 

[Il Duca]

I agree that it is a shame when someone hacks up a fine old milsurp. I don't see anything wrong with owning a gun or 2 that were done before you owned it. I, for example, have a sporterized 1903-A3. The barrel was cut to 21" and it was fitted with a fully glass bedded Mannlicher stock with a high rollover cheeck piece. It wears a Nikon scope. I wouldn't have done this to the rifle, but it was tastefully done years ago and I think it is a beautiful rifle, even though it isn't in original configuration. True it is valueless as a collectible, but I'm not a collector, I'm a shooter with a bunch of guns.

 

[Cosmoline]

It has nothing to do with antis. The movement to preserve vintage rifles arises from the same reality that the movement to preserve old buildings arose from--they're disappearing. It comes from seeing so many that have been mangled, and reading the constant flow of articles about how to turn that old surplus rifle into "something useful."

For me, it comes down to fighting ignorance. Too many rifle shooters simply don't know how to use a vintage rifle. They assume there's some flaw with the rifle and try to pound it into something that more closely resembles the remchesters they're used to.

 

[telomerase]

(Channeling Cosmoline, 1350):

For meself, it comes down to fighting slothfullness. Too many yeomen simply don't know how to use a proper Italian yew bow. They assume there be some flaw within it and try to hammer it into something that more closely resembles the crossbows and arquebuses to which they are used.

The real problem is that Cosmoline is completely right. While modern Americans SHOULD be used to more advanced weapons (Armbrust, anyone?), the truth is that they are not. And the gap between the "mere" citizen and the King's man grows bigger every day.

Sorry about the unlicensed channeling... maybe if I do it enough it will inspire me to get out to the range and let the grey geese fly, I mean join the CMP.

 

[Gewehr98]

You're onto something there, Cosmo!

For me, it comes down to fighting ignorance. Too many rifle shooters simply don't know how to use a vintage rifle. They assume there's some flaw with the rifle and try to pound it into something that more closely resembles the remchesters they're used to.

These are the same folks who say a .45-70 is a 150 yard cartridge. They completely forget that long-range shooting was an established art a century ago or more, and that arched trajectories simply meant a taller rear sight and an intimate knowledge of range tables.

Those folks knew how to shoot. Even the 1903 Springfield had a 540 yard battle zero.

Myself, I'd give a body part to find a nice, original Gewehr98 Mauser with rollercoaster rear tangent sight. No duffel bag cuts, no drilling and tapping for a scope mount...

 

[Skofnung]

Cosmoline:

I don't disagree with you at all. Any modifications that I have ever made to a milsurp have been reversible, such as swapping out stocks. I hate seeing hacked up 03 Springfields and P14/1917 Enfields with the ears ground off. The guns in their military configuration will kill an animal just as well as any "Remchester."

Again, I just find it interesting that the mid to late 1960's was when folks started caring about these things, and that it has been only in the last 10 years or so that folks have been getting practically militant about it.

It's just too bad that we won't ever see any of those M14s or M16s hitting AIMs website as surplus.

 

[.45Guy]

Myself, I'd give a body part to find a nice, original Gewehr98 Mauser with rollercoaster rear tangent sight. No duffel bag cuts, no drilling and tapping for a scope mount...

Last time I was at Louie's in Manitowoc they had one...

 

[browningguy]

Heres my bubbafied 1891 Argentine Carbine, all matching, really nice crest.





Supposedly built in the 50's by Williams. This was a big business post -WWII, some done better than others.

 

[PAC 762]

I love collecting milsurps, but you guys are taking things a little far. For example, I bought 5 turk m38's from SOG for $55 each. I kept the best 3 original. The other 2 were really beaten up. I took the worst one and spent weeks converting it into a psuedo-scout that I routinely get compliments on. I built something that I could not get elsewhere; a mauser-action, stripper fed, tough-as-nails scout.

I enjoy home gunsmithing and don't see the problem with taking a severely worn and extremely common milsurp and making it a thing of beauty and utility again.

I also rebuild AK's and other military firearms from parts kits. Is this "bubba" too?

 

[Clipper]

You know what you guys are, don't you? There's a thread elsewhere about Gun Snobs...You're simply MilSurp snobs. Many of you you don't wish to even recognise an individual's right to do as he pleases with his own property! I've been called a bonehead by Cosmo for planning a MN sporter (real high road, BTW, Cosmo). It will make posting the picture of the finished product all the sweeter, as I can relish the anguish it will cause the intolerant folks who really know what's good for us ignorant Bubbas.

 

[telomerase]

Many of you you don't wish to even recognise an individual's right to do as he pleases with his own property!

The tragic social force behind the Endangered Milsurp Act of 2006, which caused the final collapse of private property in the US. All US citizens and "Other Persons" (i.e. Canadians) were forced into servitude on communal cosmoline farms for the good of the collective. Resistance was impossible as all private weaponry had been converted to unobtainable 8X56R and 6.5 Carcano.

Fortunately, in 2009 everyone is liberated by a combined Andorran-Costa Rican-Liechtensteinian mercenary force hired by the Tannehill corporation, armed with longbows and 'smart arrows'.

 

[White Horseradish]

Many of you you don't wish to even recognise an individual's right to do as he pleases with his own property!

I don't see that. However, I do see someone who wishes to infringe on the right to speak one's mind. Now, who would that be?

90% of modern "sporterizations" are garbage. That, and they don't make financial sense. The sum of parts in a typical Mosin sporter adds up to about a used Savage 110 or a new Stevens 200, both of which can be had in many different calibers, are customizable and can be built into a really nice rifle over time because of parts availability and a thriving aftermarket. They can even be rebarreled in an average garage workshop and still shoot well. Decent Mausers start at $120 and go up from there, so we're talking even more money.

Milsurp sporters made sense in the age of rifles sold from barrels at hardware stores. That time is gone for good. Garands and SKS are the last rifle to leave service intact. More and more often arms are scrapped completely rather than sold to the public. Before long, the whole idea of milsurps will be as quaint as the notion of $17 1911 pistols sold by mail order is now.

 

[jlacy]

Sporters help the collector $$$

Wasn't this thread about pics. Oh Well, I will pile on some more.
I would think all the collectors would love the sporter projects.
Just makes your stock pile worth more $$$
I hope a bunch of bubba's hack up all the MAS 49/56's the can find. Then maybe I can sell my original for a good price.

I like milsurps. I keep most original. I tell the SO these are investments.
But once in a while I do not see what it hurts to turn one of 3,000,000 in to a one of a kind and useful rifle.
If it is worth good money in its original state it is not a good sporter project. But a turk, a Yugo, or even some of the Mosins I say to each his own.
I really could care less if anyone else likes my sporters.
I am after function. If a $49 rifle with a little work and a few parts can do the job I need done, great.

If the surp snobs spent half as much time fighting the anti crowd as griping at some poor sucker that posts a pic of their first sporter we would not need the NRA.