FieroCDSP
Member
I agree also. Should you you run out of supplies, some emergency rations that are dumb enough to cuddle up and demand the attentions of someone who's starving would be nice.
Bug-out/camping execise; lessons learned
- Thread starter K5mitch
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I agree also. Should you you run out of supplies, some emergency rations that are dumb enough to cuddle up and demand the attentions of someone who's starving would be nice.
People are making fun here, but let's revisit the cat issue in a more serious frame of mind.
Let's say Dad has got the word, SHTF and he has to evacuate his family NOW. Little 14 year old Suzie wants to take her cat, Dad says NO now go pack your bag we are leaving this house in 10 minutes. While Dad is frantically packing the car and trailer, Little Suzie with tears running down her face grabs mittens the cat and is out the door, down the street or across town to her lil' friend's house. Dad goes to load up Suzie and her bag and **** *** is Suzie? Two hours later Mom finally thinks to check with the lil' friend across town, the runaway is found but at what cost? Time is lost, trust is lost, and perhaps an opportunity for the whole family to come out unscathed is lost as well. Because Dad didn't figure a little girl's love of her cat into the picture. Bad mistake Dad, you got the big picture but overlooked an important detail.
Now let's consider a different angle... Dad says OK you can bring the cat... 10 minutes later Suzie is still looking for Mr. Mittens who likes to hide and/or sleep in odd places. 15 minutes later still looking, crying... 30 minutes later she finally found him under the sofa, asleep. She grabs him and runs to the car. Alls well? Sure, until the first Gas/potty stop, when Mr. Mittens launches himself out the open car door - Suzie runs off chasing him, costing more time, more worry, more danger. The panicked cat runs and runs - and is never found.
Now let's rewind and consider a BETTER way of looking at this. Mom and Dad sit down with Johnny and Suzie and talk about what would happen if we had to leave home and could not come back for a long time. Suzie says I'm not going without my cat. Dad says I didn't think of that, what can we do? Mom says well when we go to the vet we take a cat carrier. Dad says, ok, that's fine, that way Mr. Mittens won't get away if we have to open the car or stay in a motel room... but what if you can't find him or catch him right away? I can't have four people risking their lives for the sake of a cat - I know you love him Suzie, but we all love you and we won't risk losing you because of him. Mom suggests, well, when we go out of town on vacation we always give him a fresh litter box and a big bowl of food and a big bowl of water left out, and we have the neighbors across the street come in and check on things every couple days - they have our spare key... that way he would be ok at least for a few days or a week. If it was safe by then we could come back and get him then. The family agrees this is the best idea, and they now have a plan for what to do (and what is to become of Mr. Mittens) if the family has to leave home in a hurry. Suzie is not panicked because she knows he will be ok even though she misses him. She has Mom and Dad's promise to come back for him if it is safe to do so later. Mom and Dad know they can count on Suzie to cooperate on SHTF day because this has all been worked out in advance.
This is just like having a fire escape plan where everybody knows how they are getting out and where to meet up afterwards. It's important to acknowledge that even though the cat (or whatever else) is not important to YOU and your immediate focus on "survival", that it may be important to someone whose cooperation is VERY important to your efforts, and possibly even to your long term relationship with that person.
Let's say Dad has got the word, SHTF and he has to evacuate his family NOW. Little 14 year old Suzie wants to take her cat, Dad says NO now go pack your bag we are leaving this house in 10 minutes. While Dad is frantically packing the car and trailer, Little Suzie with tears running down her face grabs mittens the cat and is out the door, down the street or across town to her lil' friend's house. Dad goes to load up Suzie and her bag and **** *** is Suzie? Two hours later Mom finally thinks to check with the lil' friend across town, the runaway is found but at what cost? Time is lost, trust is lost, and perhaps an opportunity for the whole family to come out unscathed is lost as well. Because Dad didn't figure a little girl's love of her cat into the picture. Bad mistake Dad, you got the big picture but overlooked an important detail.
Now let's consider a different angle... Dad says OK you can bring the cat... 10 minutes later Suzie is still looking for Mr. Mittens who likes to hide and/or sleep in odd places. 15 minutes later still looking, crying... 30 minutes later she finally found him under the sofa, asleep. She grabs him and runs to the car. Alls well? Sure, until the first Gas/potty stop, when Mr. Mittens launches himself out the open car door - Suzie runs off chasing him, costing more time, more worry, more danger. The panicked cat runs and runs - and is never found.
Now let's rewind and consider a BETTER way of looking at this. Mom and Dad sit down with Johnny and Suzie and talk about what would happen if we had to leave home and could not come back for a long time. Suzie says I'm not going without my cat. Dad says I didn't think of that, what can we do? Mom says well when we go to the vet we take a cat carrier. Dad says, ok, that's fine, that way Mr. Mittens won't get away if we have to open the car or stay in a motel room... but what if you can't find him or catch him right away? I can't have four people risking their lives for the sake of a cat - I know you love him Suzie, but we all love you and we won't risk losing you because of him. Mom suggests, well, when we go out of town on vacation we always give him a fresh litter box and a big bowl of food and a big bowl of water left out, and we have the neighbors across the street come in and check on things every couple days - they have our spare key... that way he would be ok at least for a few days or a week. If it was safe by then we could come back and get him then. The family agrees this is the best idea, and they now have a plan for what to do (and what is to become of Mr. Mittens) if the family has to leave home in a hurry. Suzie is not panicked because she knows he will be ok even though she misses him. She has Mom and Dad's promise to come back for him if it is safe to do so later. Mom and Dad know they can count on Suzie to cooperate on SHTF day because this has all been worked out in advance.
This is just like having a fire escape plan where everybody knows how they are getting out and where to meet up afterwards. It's important to acknowledge that even though the cat (or whatever else) is not important to YOU and your immediate focus on "survival", that it may be important to someone whose cooperation is VERY important to your efforts, and possibly even to your long term relationship with that person.
On the pets issue, if I didn't take the critters the wife wouldn't go, end of discussion. 
On the fire issue, I keep disposable lighters and cans of sterno around. The sterno cans are cheap, readily available, can act as firestarter or a quick stove. You can fill the can full of water, dump out the water and fire them right up- that is pretty waterproof. I have several in my travel trailer, and my boonie bags.
As for the didi bag- I have a didi trailer, complete with food, clothes, power and a toilet. It takes me 10 minutes to hook up- about the same time to pack a bag. Plus the critters have a nice place to sleep at night.
On the fire issue, I keep disposable lighters and cans of sterno around. The sterno cans are cheap, readily available, can act as firestarter or a quick stove. You can fill the can full of water, dump out the water and fire them right up- that is pretty waterproof. I have several in my travel trailer, and my boonie bags.
As for the didi bag- I have a didi trailer, complete with food, clothes, power and a toilet. It takes me 10 minutes to hook up- about the same time to pack a bag. Plus the critters have a nice place to sleep at night.
On the issue of the cat (or dog):
There were bunches of people who wouldn't bug out during Katrina due to being forced to leave their pets behind. In some cases it cost them their lives.
Get a pet carrier....that will at least get it in the car so you can start moving. Pack some dry food and two collapseable bowls (one for food, one for water-look for them in pet stores or at REI.com: http://www.rei.com/product/759618) Also look at a leash. It will look stupid and the cat will hate it...but you cannot reason with a cat, dog do better with the leash idea. Be prepared to possibly pick up and carry at cat to keep it under control. It will suck....but that is the price you pay in having "dependents". You would do the same thing for a small child.....and for many people their pets are their "kids".
On the issue of storage of important papers:
1) Make copies of everything (including but not limited to: passport, drivers lic, gun lic, insurance policies, medical info/records, prescriptions, etc, etc) and scan the copies (as JPGs or PDFs preferably). Put the scans on a USB "memory stick" or flash drive. Keep one copy in a plastic bag in your bug out gear, put another copy in a safe/safe deposit box and take another copy or two and mail them to family in other areas.
2) Take those scans from above and send them to yourself on an account that you have set up on one of those free internet based email accounts.
With this, you can get access to your important papers with a PC or an internet connected PC (not at all hard to find outside of a disaster area).
I think plenty of others have addressed some of your other issues.
There were bunches of people who wouldn't bug out during Katrina due to being forced to leave their pets behind. In some cases it cost them their lives.
Get a pet carrier....that will at least get it in the car so you can start moving. Pack some dry food and two collapseable bowls (one for food, one for water-look for them in pet stores or at REI.com: http://www.rei.com/product/759618) Also look at a leash. It will look stupid and the cat will hate it...but you cannot reason with a cat, dog do better with the leash idea. Be prepared to possibly pick up and carry at cat to keep it under control. It will suck....but that is the price you pay in having "dependents". You would do the same thing for a small child.....and for many people their pets are their "kids".
On the issue of storage of important papers:
1) Make copies of everything (including but not limited to: passport, drivers lic, gun lic, insurance policies, medical info/records, prescriptions, etc, etc) and scan the copies (as JPGs or PDFs preferably). Put the scans on a USB "memory stick" or flash drive. Keep one copy in a plastic bag in your bug out gear, put another copy in a safe/safe deposit box and take another copy or two and mail them to family in other areas.
2) Take those scans from above and send them to yourself on an account that you have set up on one of those free internet based email accounts.
With this, you can get access to your important papers with a PC or an internet connected PC (not at all hard to find outside of a disaster area).
I think plenty of others have addressed some of your other issues.
I would recommend anyone who is anticipating bugging out with cats do this experiment as a dry run - load up the cat(s) in their travel container, put them in the back seat or other area where you anticipate transporting them, and take off on a drive. Preferably you do this during Friday evening rush hour on the eve of a 3 day weekend. This is to simulate 2 hours of stop & go bumper-to-bumper traffic. I'd recommend you bring ear plugs and have a good tarp laid down on whatever you have the carrier on.
We moved about 3 years ago - not far, only about 90 minutes away. Our cats were loaded in containers (cat carriers) for transport. They were yowling piteously and incessantly the whole way - they also puked, shat, and pissed themselves dry on the drive to our new home. The noise and odor of that experience have convinced me that cats simply do not travel well. It is unkind to the pet and to the passengers - who in a real-world SHTF situation will already be under huge stress. It could push some past the breaking point, and I can picture a lot of pet cats set loose on the side of the road by poor folks who have just reached their limit and snapped, no longer able to cope.
Probably the best solution is food and water set out in the home, several day's supply, and a way for the animal to get out in case you are unable to return by the time food and water run out. At least that way they have a *chance* to make it on their own.
We moved about 3 years ago - not far, only about 90 minutes away. Our cats were loaded in containers (cat carriers) for transport. They were yowling piteously and incessantly the whole way - they also puked, shat, and pissed themselves dry on the drive to our new home. The noise and odor of that experience have convinced me that cats simply do not travel well. It is unkind to the pet and to the passengers - who in a real-world SHTF situation will already be under huge stress. It could push some past the breaking point, and I can picture a lot of pet cats set loose on the side of the road by poor folks who have just reached their limit and snapped, no longer able to cope.
Probably the best solution is food and water set out in the home, several day's supply, and a way for the animal to get out in case you are unable to return by the time food and water run out. At least that way they have a *chance* to make it on their own.
it depends on the animal they're indivuals like us some are PITA some couldn't care less about traveling(including cats) I would not reccomend abandoning pets esp animals that are kept indoors they will not be able to survive. this goes double for animals that have been declawed. If you won't be responsible for pets in a SHTF situation don't have them. If you have to abandon them in an emergency in many cases the most humane thing is to shoot them
K5mitch
Member
We've got experience travelling with this cat. We moved from KS to VA, and then another 250 miles within VA.
This cat would just sit on the rear decklid and chill out.
Anywho, Heather's agreed to carry the cat supplies. Fair compromise in my opinion; she wants to bring the cat, she gets to carry the stuff. I'm eventually going to get a harness for the cat, I have never seen a cat last longer than a minute with a leash attached to its collar. A harness would be a lot more secure.
I posted a follow-up thread to this one illustrating what we've come up with. http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=380925
This cat would just sit on the rear decklid and chill out.
Anywho, Heather's agreed to carry the cat supplies. Fair compromise in my opinion; she wants to bring the cat, she gets to carry the stuff. I'm eventually going to get a harness for the cat, I have never seen a cat last longer than a minute with a leash attached to its collar. A harness would be a lot more secure.
I posted a follow-up thread to this one illustrating what we've come up with. http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=380925
Sergeant Sabre
Member
For a really good write-up about bugging out, with details about how to be extremely well-prepared, read Listening to Katrina, at http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/blogs/klessons/index.html
good exercise
My thoughts.
1. I have one of the magnesium fire starters and found similar issues. I think that the “spark-ability” of steel on a flint has to do with the carbon content. The higher carbon steels seem to work better. What I did was take an old small wrench (1/4 or 3/8) that had no chrome coating and ground off the open end. I then put it on the same key chain. Also, I keep a small piece (about 4"x2"x1") of super dried out oak in my bag. This actually saved my butt once. I also keep half a 2x4 in the jeep. Holds my hood open and doubles as emergency dry fire wood.
2. As others have said, just let the cat out side. Cat can usually take care of them selves. If it were a dog, I would say take it
3. I noticed that you said that you have a battery powered lantern. I used to use these too, but I now use the hand crank type. They come in a few sizes and can be found for less than the battery type. Add to that the fact that you don’t have to buy batteries and the cost of ownership goes down with each use. Plus they weigh nowhere near as much as the battery ones. Some can even be found with a cigarette lighter plug for recharging cell phones or GPS units (could come in handy).
like these: http://www.shopping.com/xDN-flashlights-crank_lantern
4. As others have said, in a SHTF situation I would grab a rifle. Maybe two. In your case, maybe give the wife the 10/22 and you take the shotgun.
5. SOCKS SOCKS SOCKS! Dry socks are worth their weight in gold. The importance of this could vary depending on where you are and the season, but I always have 2 or 3 extra pair of Smart Wool socks in my BOB.
6. First Aid kit. I didn't see one in your list. A First Aid kit (with any needed meds) is a must.
Just me thoughts.
My thoughts.
1. I have one of the magnesium fire starters and found similar issues. I think that the “spark-ability” of steel on a flint has to do with the carbon content. The higher carbon steels seem to work better. What I did was take an old small wrench (1/4 or 3/8) that had no chrome coating and ground off the open end. I then put it on the same key chain. Also, I keep a small piece (about 4"x2"x1") of super dried out oak in my bag. This actually saved my butt once. I also keep half a 2x4 in the jeep. Holds my hood open and doubles as emergency dry fire wood.
2. As others have said, just let the cat out side. Cat can usually take care of them selves. If it were a dog, I would say take it
3. I noticed that you said that you have a battery powered lantern. I used to use these too, but I now use the hand crank type. They come in a few sizes and can be found for less than the battery type. Add to that the fact that you don’t have to buy batteries and the cost of ownership goes down with each use. Plus they weigh nowhere near as much as the battery ones. Some can even be found with a cigarette lighter plug for recharging cell phones or GPS units (could come in handy).
like these: http://www.shopping.com/xDN-flashlights-crank_lantern
4. As others have said, in a SHTF situation I would grab a rifle. Maybe two. In your case, maybe give the wife the 10/22 and you take the shotgun.
5. SOCKS SOCKS SOCKS! Dry socks are worth their weight in gold. The importance of this could vary depending on where you are and the season, but I always have 2 or 3 extra pair of Smart Wool socks in my BOB.
6. First Aid kit. I didn't see one in your list. A First Aid kit (with any needed meds) is a must.
Just me thoughts.
No offense fellas, but try this in the PNW, around say, February...in the coast range, while it's pissing on your head. It's not about finding the dry stuff, just the least wet. Old man's beard moss is really great stuff for this and pitchy wood. Pitchy wood is easily found in the PNW rain forests by working out a branch from an old dead tree fallen onto the ground that has been rotting for years. The pitch is the only thing that keeps it from being utterly decayed like the rest of the log.
+1 on bic lighters, an invaluable and small tool. I have a magnesium stick that is always close when on the camping trips also if the bic gives out. And, if it does, the bic flint makes starting off the magnesium quite a bit easier.
Having a girl that even entertained this scenario and did not chew your ear off for the whole weekend is something special in its own right. You be a lucky man to pull that one off and get away with it.
K5mitch
Member
And she also gets terribly mad at me if I go to the range without her.
I've got plenty of socks (good quality boot socks) in my gear, along with a first aid kit. We're working on turning Heather's camping gear into a BOB.
I reorganized the ammo I keep in milsurp cans. One can has a hodge-podge of various shotgun loads (slugs, 00, #4, and #6), a couple hundred .22, and some extra pistol ammo.
I used to keep everything separated; one can for the shotgun, one for the rifles and pistols. Now it's a bit mixed up. The one that would be grabbed has some blaze orange duct tape on it. There's no mistaking which ammo can is which now.
We always had cats as a kid, and they were always outdoor cats. i know that is not PC these days, but they were always free to come and go as the wanted to. Sometimes they would go outside and not return for several days. Some of them were downright friendly and traveled well, others it was a nightmare to take them to the vet.
We also had dogs. Every one of them was fine in the car. The beagle I have now is a little antsy in the car but she settles down after a short while.
You cannot wait on a cat or dog when time is of the essence. Its especially stupid with cats who can get along by themselves for weeks on end if you set out enough food and water for them, and probably won't even really notice you are gone. Dogs need more help.
If you have a pet, it is probably a real good idea to get them used to going with you places in the car ahead of time, if you plan to take them with in an emergency situation.
We also had dogs. Every one of them was fine in the car. The beagle I have now is a little antsy in the car but she settles down after a short while.
You cannot wait on a cat or dog when time is of the essence. Its especially stupid with cats who can get along by themselves for weeks on end if you set out enough food and water for them, and probably won't even really notice you are gone. Dogs need more help.
If you have a pet, it is probably a real good idea to get them used to going with you places in the car ahead of time, if you plan to take them with in an emergency situation.
XDKingslayer
member
Take the cat. It's not just a pet, it's a food source...
Bobarino
member
precisely why i recommended the Trioxane fuel tabs. it doesn't even have to be February. just camp out in the Olympic Rain forest. oh and learn to fish for whatever is in your area. being a Washingtonian, i'm a salmon nut but just about any fish is edible.
Bobby
ctdonath
Member
bruss01 gets to the point, which can be summarized: for some, pets are family.
Leaving pets behind could, for many, be just as traumatic as leaving the kids behind. Do not underestimate this.
I dread my wife's reaction should Teddy pass on.
Fortunately, my dogs travel well (2600 miles in four days, and ready for more).
Leaving pets behind could, for many, be just as traumatic as leaving the kids behind. Do not underestimate this.
I dread my wife's reaction should Teddy pass on.
Fortunately, my dogs travel well (2600 miles in four days, and ready for more).
XDKingslayer
member
Time to start marinating it now. Put it on a diet of cornmeal and garlic.
K5mitch
Member
The cat is over 15 pounds...
cat stew recipe
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6974687.stm
The meat should be diced and fried until it is brown. Then lemon grass is to be added along with salt and pepper and three cups of quandong, which is a sweet desert fruit.
It is recommended that the dish be left to simmer for five hours before being garnished with bush plums and mistletoe berries.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6974687.stm
The meat should be diced and fried until it is brown. Then lemon grass is to be added along with salt and pepper and three cups of quandong, which is a sweet desert fruit.
It is recommended that the dish be left to simmer for five hours before being garnished with bush plums and mistletoe berries.
Drgong
Member
I know my friend would not leave without his cats, just how he is, even if his wife would be saying "leave them"
Thankfully, if I have a movable pet it is a dog, and most likely a Lab or Rhodesian Ridgeback, and those you can justify taking as added self defense and such.
Thankfully, if I have a movable pet it is a dog, and most likely a Lab or Rhodesian Ridgeback, and those you can justify taking as added self defense and such.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
I've always been curious as to why "surviving a SHTF event" always seems to = go camping. I mean honestly, look back at all the SHTF events that have actually happened. Tornados, Katrina, LA riots, etc. Does "go camping" really fit into a survival plan for any of those? I think that the vast majority of realistic SHTF plans should involve making it to another unaffected populated area, not going out alone into the wilderness. Most of us don't even have genuine wilderness around where we live.
A real SHTF plan in my opinion would be to look as inconspicuous as possible(no rilfes, no tac-vests, no large amounts of camping gear), find emergency relief ASAP, keep a concealed handgun, some money or valuables for trade hidden on one's person, Some food and water, and lots of gas for a vehicle.
All of this "go out to the woods and live off the land" stuff is a fine fantasy and a fun hobby, but not a real way to make it through an urban disaster area.
A real SHTF plan in my opinion would be to look as inconspicuous as possible(no rilfes, no tac-vests, no large amounts of camping gear), find emergency relief ASAP, keep a concealed handgun, some money or valuables for trade hidden on one's person, Some food and water, and lots of gas for a vehicle.
All of this "go out to the woods and live off the land" stuff is a fine fantasy and a fun hobby, but not a real way to make it through an urban disaster area.
K5mitch
Member
taurusowner:
we planned a camping trip, and I turned it into a little exercise.
As I posted earlier.... I made a follow-up to this thread which is a lot more in touch with issues we will probably face.
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=380925
we planned a camping trip, and I turned it into a little exercise.
As I posted earlier.... I made a follow-up to this thread which is a lot more in touch with issues we will probably face.
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=380925
Last edited:
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
I know, I wasn't specifically talking about you OP. Just SHTF plans in general.
Every so often there is a new "What do you think of my Bug Out Bag" post. And invariably their bag is filled with camping gear and tons of rifles and ammo. None of this stuff has any real use in a true urban disaster. It's really just a guy-fantasy come to like. A true Bug out Bag should include lots of cash, ID documents, more than a few 5gal jugs of gas for their vehicle, and a concealed handgun. Toss in a few MREs or even just a couple boxes of Nutr-Grain bars and water and you're basically set for making it out of the disaster area. No matter where you are, it's highly doubtful you're more than a day's drive from an safe populated zone. Transport, ID, protection, water. That's about all you need. The rest of the cool gear is pretty much useless outside of dreams of zombie attacks.
Every so often there is a new "What do you think of my Bug Out Bag" post. And invariably their bag is filled with camping gear and tons of rifles and ammo. None of this stuff has any real use in a true urban disaster. It's really just a guy-fantasy come to like. A true Bug out Bag should include lots of cash, ID documents, more than a few 5gal jugs of gas for their vehicle, and a concealed handgun. Toss in a few MREs or even just a couple boxes of Nutr-Grain bars and water and you're basically set for making it out of the disaster area. No matter where you are, it's highly doubtful you're more than a day's drive from an safe populated zone. Transport, ID, protection, water. That's about all you need. The rest of the cool gear is pretty much useless outside of dreams of zombie attacks.
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