Shelters for extended bug-out, SHTF, TEOTW

[MillCreek]

This is a very interesting thread. I live in the same sort of weather geography as does Nem. Having been a backpacker and hiker for three decades now, I am pretty familiar with using tents in this area. But a question remains: how do these large wall tents, yurts and whatnot handle interior condensation? My backpacking tents, even with all the vents, flaps and ailerons still produce a lot of condensation inside in our cold and wet climate. You can wake up with your gear and sleeping bag almost as wet as if you had slept outside.

 

[Jeff White]

NMshooter,
I've seen those geodesic dome shaped tents, but have no experience with them. The new modular tents are very nice, but they are obscenely expensive.

Jeff

 

[NMshooter]

New modular tents?

So there are finally replacements for all that old musty canvas?

One thing I would like to mention that no one else has is the need for cots.

Sleeping on a pad, even a Thermarest, gets old. Especially if you have back problems.

My experience is limited to the very rugged US issue aluminium framed cot, and it is better than sleeping on the ground.

Guess an old inflatable mattress could be used, but have lots of patches handy...

Folding tables and chairs would be needed too, and lots of other things that escape me at the moment.

 

[mitchshrader]

have you looked at

the portable garage idea? Or building one?

I built a Very Nice (quonset style) shelter (dimensions variable, dealers choice) out of PVC 2" pipe & doubled cheap tarp. you can carry 20' joints, or halve em and use connectors. Way lighter than a teepee. Less sturdy than a 'proper' yurt but much sturdier than it looks. Cheap, off the shelf parts, and multi use as well. Use GOOD stakes (30 inch 5/8 rebar with a capped 1' x 1'' od oversleeve to prevent the rebar from abrading the butt of your PVC poles) and you can figure on getting through the winter. Grommet kit & a hatful of grommets, roll of para cord, quite useful.

 

[AStone]

the portable garage idea?

Mitch, great idea. Hadn't even thought of it.

Interestingly, I already own a kiosk that I use for street fairs for my business. Frame made of 1" conduit, cover of fire-retardant vinyl tarp.

It wouldn't serve as a main sleeping quarters, or even as a weather worthy shelter in the dead of winter (no possibility of putting a stove in it, like in a wall tent). But for a gathering space or dining space for a camp during 3-seasons, it'd be great.

Funny I never thought of using the business kiosk for a camp. Chalk up another camp tool.

Still, I want to find one of those incredible yurts as sleeping/living room quarters for those winter camps...just cause they're so cool looking.

 

[LightningJoe]

My plan is to lay the backseat of our Hyundai Elantra down and use the backseat and trunk as a sleeping area. Small car, good gas mileage, travel light, get to relatives in a different part of the country. I'm not planning a camping trip, but a bugout.

 

[Nio]

Hammock. Definitely.

I use one for backpacking all the time.

Try this: Why Hammock?

I've been using Hennessy Hammocks for awhile.

Nio

 

[Thin Black Line]

I have a cabin 100 miles NW of here that I plan on using for TEOTWAWKI

Hopefully, you won't find it occupied by 10 guys who only lived 15 miles
away from it

 

[AStone]

My plan is to lay the backseat of our Hyundai Elantra down and use the backseat and trunk as a sleeping area. Small car, good gas mileage, travel light, get to relatives in a different part of the country. I'm not planning a camping trip, but a bugout.

Hey, Joe. Sounds like a plan.

Let us know how that backseat and trunk feel a month or so after bugout.

If less than desirable, maybe you can find us on our 'camping trip', & maybe there'll be an extra cot in a yurt heated with a wood stove, next to the cook tent where the squirrel stew is simmerin'.

Nem

 

[NMshooter]

Hey, Nematocyst, I was wondering what sort of cot you would recommend, and any sleeping bags as well.

I am currently without cot, and have a Wiggy's ultralite bag.

 

[Sam]

Slightly OT but this is what's replacing all the military canvas over the next 6 years:
http://www.alaskastructures.com/gsa.html

For the military they offer a lot of advantages. Lots tougher than the TEMPER tents, warmer and cooler as appropriate, less maintainance and better interior room. They even make a ceiling panel to stash your gear on.
Believe they will start doing some smaller sizes in the next year.

Sam

 

[AStone]

Hey, Nematocyst, I was wondering what sort of cot you would recommend, and any sleeping bags as well.

I am currently without cot, and have a Wiggy's ultralite bag.

Shooter, I don't currently even own a cot, although after someone mentioned one earlier in the thread, I'm going to look at them again. The last one I tried - years ago - wasn't very comfortable. Now, I actually always sleep on the ground when camping (or on a futon in the trailer).

I've got a very comfortable full length air mattress by Thermarest. (When backpacking, to save a few ounces, I carry my 3/4 length with 1/2 of a closed cell foam pad for under my feet, which also doubles as a "kneeling pad" for camp use (e.g., cooking).

If anyone has suggestions for good, lightweight,comfortable cots, I'm all ears.

As for bags, I tend to buy the best. I'm a thin guy without a lot of natural insulation, and I hate being cold. (Don't mind heat at all, but cold ... <shivers>.

I currently own three bags, all good quality goose down, but with different ratings: 25*, 5* & -25* (for dead ofwinter). One of them is by North Face, the other two by Marmot. Am happy with both, but given the chance and enough money, I'll buy Marmot every time, hands down.

Here's a few for reasonable prices (for Marmot bags).

Marmot bags are some of the best out there, but you'll pay dearly. My -25* Marmot, with "dryloft" treatment (which allows water to roll right off - even a whole glass of water just sits on the cover and doesn't soak in) will cost you around 5 bills. (It paid for itself in two nights in the Sangre de Cristos east of Santa Fe about a decade ago; most horrendous snow storm I've ever been in at 10800'. 70 mph winds & the thermometer read -10*F at 9 the next morning after I managed to dig out of the tent.)

Remember that sleeping bag temperature ratings assume no wind conditons (or used inside a tent) for an average person. If you're cold natured like me, I carry a 25* bag for 40* temps, and am prepared to sleep in fleece and long johns if I need to.

If you don't have a bag cover with dry loft, consider a bivy sack of gortex. It'll improve the rating of any bag by at least 5*, and is water proof. The only thing about bivies is, unless you ventilate, if you sweat, you may get wetter in the bivy than out of it. (Gortex or not.)

In any case, for sleeping bags, look carefully at: 1) the quality of goose down (volume/ounce should be high); 2) zippers: get the bags with the best zippers; a stuck zipper in a cold snow storm is a nightmare; 3) good draft tubes (that sit by the zipper to keep drafts out); 4) and for cold weather bags, a well-fitting hood is a must in my book.

Nem

 

[AStone]

Slightly OT but this is what's replacing all the military canvas over the next 6 years:
http://www.alaskastructures.com/gsa.html

Sam, that doesn't seem OT at all.

What cool buildings. And this: "Engineered to withstand 100 mph wind and 15 psf snow load. With lighter weight and lower cube, the AKSS system can be erected by four trained personnel in less than 30 minutes."

Wow. That's what I call SHTF material.

Wonder what the frames look like.

But wonder also what those "smaller versions" are going to cost.

 

[72Rover]

Gimme shelter

I was just considering this as well today. I've got pretty good camping gear accumulated over the years, and now that I've got an ex-MoD "Sankey" off-road trailer to haul behind the Land Rover, weight/space isn't an issue.

I've been considering one of those E-Z UP pop-up shelters or one of the lower-priced clones, either in 10x10 or 12x12. Quick (instant) set-up with reasonable snow-loading capabilities, and with accessories like side walls, it would make a pretty weather-secure cook-shack. I've also been considering modifying it somewhat to take a metal stove jack, to allow for a shepherd's or some other portable wood stove, like those advertised in Cabella's.

Cheers

 

[AStone]

Are E-Z Up's sturdy enough?

I've been considering one of those E-Z UP pop-up shelters or one of the lower-priced clones, either in 10x10 or 12x12. Quick (instant) set-up with reasonable snow-loading capabilities, and with accessories like side walls, it would make a pretty weather-secure cook-shack.

72Rover, I don't want to cast shadows on E-Z Up products. I think for what they are designed (street fairs, kiosks for venders at art/music festivals, etc), they're great.

Now take this with a BIG grain of salt, cause it's based mainly on 'gut level' impressions, but speaking only for myself, I don't think I'd want to use one for a "survival" shelter except in the best of weather. I'm not sure where you are, but in my part of the world, those "best of weather" conditions only happen in about three months of the year (mid-June through mid-September).

They're designed to go up and come down easily and be light to carry. And they accomplish that, but it seems to me at a price of potentially (again, gut level here) being less sturdy than other options. Let alone the less-expensive clones.

Even though they're more difficult to put up, I lean towards a more substantial frame based on either 3/4" or 1" steel conduit.

These folks in a next door town, offer some pretty inexpensive shelters based on waterproof tarps & conduit frames. I use one for my business kiosk at street fairs & festivals. I'm pretty sure they also sell E-Z up (or some similar brand), and are very knowledgeable and willing to share their knowledge, so it might be worth exploring with them.

Nem

 

[NMshooter]

Actually I brought up cots a few posts back.

The GI cot is the one I have experience with, it worked well enough when I used one. Probably what I will end up with, since the others I have seen looked flimsy in comparison.

I like synthetic fill bags more, do not like getting poked by quills.

I keep looking at various sleeping systems, but am not yet willing to put down several hundred to try one out. Maybe someone here has used a multilayer bag/system and can tell us their experiences.

Sam, a smaller shelter like that would be very nice.

Any assorted stuff we have overlooked for living outdoors?

 

[Sam]

I was 1st Sgt at the 49th MMS when they adopted the Alaska shelter system.
The MMG specializes in establishing Bare Bases, the kind where a mud puddle and 2 miles of blacktop become AFB in 3 days. The Alaska system saved weight cube and time of assembly. Frames are tubular aluminum that nest. 1 man can carry an entire frame for some distance, that won't happen with a TEMPER. I was able to figure out the assembly on my own in about 30 minutes. There is no comparison between the Alaska and the tents.


They show a 1 man version in the recreation section of the website. One of my old troops told me they are playing with a 4 man setup that should be just the ticket, and if it ran $1K it would be a bargain.

Sam

 

[AStone]

synth v. down

I like synthetic fill bags more, do not like getting poked by quills.

Shooter, when I was backpacking more, I opted for down mainly because of the weight issue. I'm a small guy, and when your pack weighs 65, and you've got 2000' to climb for the day, every ounce counts.

Plus, the down lofts slightly better than synthetic fills. Yes, the synth bags are more insulating than down when they get wet, but being a tent guy (who seals his down bag in a plastic garbage bag for river crossings), I've never had a problem with keeping it dry.

Having said that, those synth bags can be very nice if you don't mind a few extra ounces. They are less expensive, and if you pay attention to bag construction and care for them (including shaking the hell out of them when you pull them out to increase their loft), they can be almost as warm as down.

With insulation, it's all about trapping air. The best way to do that is with the "loft" of down. But there are some new technologies available incorporating hollow fibers which trap extra air inside them, increasing R values.

I'd recommend going to a quality backpacking shop, one that caters to serious mountaineering expeditions. Even if you don't buy a bag from them, they can inform you about current technologies and good bags.

If you're anywhere near Albuquerque, I recommend a little backpack shop on Central Ave (Route 66) right across the street from UNM. Can't remember it's name (and can't say it's still there, having not been in ABQ for over a decade) that will steer you well. Talk to Bob, the owner.

Nem

 

[72Rover]

Shelter options

72Rover, I don't want to cast shadows on E-Z Up products. I think for what they are designed (street fairs, kiosks for venders at art/music festivals, etc), they're great.

Now take this with a BIG grain of salt, cause it's based mainly on 'gut level' impressions, but speaking only for myself, I don't think I'd want to use one for a "survival" shelter except in the best of weather. I'm not sure where you are, but in my part of the world, those "best of weather" conditions only happen in about three months of the year (mid-June through mid-September).

They're designed to go up and come down easily and be light to carry. And they accomplish that, but it seems to me at a price of potentially (again, gut level here) being less sturdy than other options. Let alone the less-expensive clones.

Nem

I know what you mean...indeed, I was considering the tarp'n'tube setup, and Cabela's is now marketing a wall tent version of the same system. We've been using several of these shelters for a couple of years now as rally HQ for the Rover club's functions, as weight/pack size isn't an issue there, either.

Now if they could just offer a camo version instead of white - or silver....

Cheers

 

[AStone]

Now if they could just offer a camo version instead of white - or silver....

Rover, I wonder if there are ... paints? dies? stains? that one could use to turn a white or silver tarp into a camo without damaging the fabric, or making it too stiff?

Nem

 

[ArgentineSteel]

I have stayed in a home built Yurt with a good sized scout troop. The yurt was plenty big and was very comfortable. The roof was framed out from an old wagon wheel. Sides were rough cut and peeled logs, covered by canvas. Floor was decked and had a nice porch. Nice semi-permanent installation.

Lots of room, put in a wood stove, and you can live there year round.

 

[chaim]

These look interesting

A bit pricey, but according to the website they are supposed to be pretty windproof, pretty waterproof, and they are very lightweight and easy to transport in all their sizes. They are also available with stoves for warmth and cooking, and the stoves also appear to be pretty compact as well.

http://www.kifaru.net/TIPI_SLEDhm.htm

 

[AStone]

Chaim, those look very interesting. You're right though, pretty pricey. {Ouch }

I do like their conical design. Definitely would shed some serious wind.

My only problem with them - other than sticker shock - is that the usable space drops off as you get towards the side walls. At least with a traditional tipi, there's more space around the periphery, but then you've got all that high space that seems ... wasted and hard to heat.

The advantage of a yurt is vertical side walls that are circular. Thus you keep the wind shedding capacity while maintaining the usable space.

Problem is, nobody over here seems to be designing a good portable one. There are some companies making more permanent (& expensive) yurts, and at least one company importing traditional yurts from Asia (with wood frames & felt coverings), but nothing I've found yet using more modern fabrics & frame technologies.

Alls the pity. It's such a great design, used for millennia in the extremely windy and bitterly cold regions like Mongollia.

Why reinvent the wheel? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. (And all manner of other cliches.)

Somebody out there is bound to be producing a modern technology version of a nomadic (move it once a month) yurt that could sleep 10 comfortably, with stove, and be carried easily in the back of a pickup.

If not, maybe it's time to go into business.

Call 'em BOYs: Bug Out Yurts.

Nem

 

[chaim]

Problem is, nobody over here seems to be designing a good portable one. There are some companies making more permanent (& expensive) yurts, and at least one company importing traditional yurts from Asia (with wood frames & felt coverings), but nothing I've found yet using more modern fabrics & frame technologies.

Alls the pity. It's such a great design, used for millennia in the extremely windy and bitterly cold regions like Mongollia.

Why reinvent the wheel? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. (And all manner of other cliches.)

How "handy" are you? Is this something that you might be able to do yourself? Might be an interesting project for someone with the ability (i.e. definately not me).

If not, maybe it's time to go into business.

Until I got to this quote in your post I was going to say this myself. Are you the entreprenuerial type? The yurt does look like an interesting idea. If someone would market a smaller one (i.e. more camping friendly) that would be lighter and easier to put up (maybe out of canvas, nylon or some other similar material) and put it out at a reasonable price (which may be like those tee-pees with the synthetic material) I'd consider it.

 

[AStone]

How "handy" are you? Is this something that you might be able to do yourself? Might be an interesting project for someone with the ability (i.e. definately not me)... Until I got to this quote in your post I was going to say this myself. Are you the entreprenuerial type?

I agree that this would not be a difficult project for a few people.

I'm not "handy" enough to do this on my own, but would be willing to venture into it with the right people.

In particular, there would be some sewing requiring an industrial strength sewing machine (which, of course, I don't have laying around).

A few years ago, I shared a house with a guy (a "former" friend with whom I've parted ways) who was building a yurt of wood & canvas. He got the directions from a couple of "how to build a yurt" books. The frame was easy enough, but the sewing part was a "bird dog" (as they say in the south).

Last time I heard, he had it up in his backyard as a guest house.

Personally, I didn't much like the frame, made of 1X2's bolted into a scissor arrangement. The frame was very clunking and hard to move.

I'm just wondering if some creative engineering types couldn't figure out a better way. My studio is in a 2500 sq ft warehouse space (with my trailer). When I get some time next spring, maybe I'll look into some ideas for a yurt.

Unless that is, someone comes along to this thread in the mean time and posts a URL to the perfect, futureprimitive technomadic yurt, light weight, bomb proof, for only $1000.

Nem