Bull pup's? When did that happen?

[gun'sRgood]

Watching the Afghanistan mess. [putting that lightly!] Noticing that our guys have a lot of bull pup's. What are they? When did they start that? Who makes them? What's the trigger like?

 

[bersaguy]

They're Steyr AUGs, been around since the late 70's at least. Probably our uniforms, but not our guys. AUGs have been in use with Australia, and some other European nations

 

[Bwana John]

L85
Current British Issue.

 

[CapnMac]

Some debate on how far back--there's a British author who will point back to 1870 or so with a Thornycroft, if one is interested in an academic debate on the topic.

With the rise of cramped APC and helos as military transport, there was a push to make short overall length weapons that did not require folding stocks. The bullpup design lets you have a longer barrel in a shorter overall length.

Two major flaws are usually evinced with bullpups--a distinct lack of being ambidextrous use, and only middling-good triggers.
The French got as close to an ambi bullpup with the FAMAS as has been issued (it's limitation was not being optics ready, so it's being replaced with the HK416)

The Brits have fielded the L85 for donkey's years now, and it's a dog's breakfast. It's RH only. The mag release is right where it will be bumped off by banging into your LBE. The selector switch is equally absurd. It took them two generations to decide to use STANAG magazines. But, this is not a surprise, as they laid off all the weapons designers and let engineers more skilled at designing washing machines and car engines design their primary military long arm.
The L85A3 was redesigned by HK after they bought the remnants of Enfield. There's talk of an interim L85A4 until the Brits decide to commit to a 416 buy.

It's a mixed bag.

 

[wiscoaster]

...Two major flaws are usually evinced with bullpups--a distinct lack of being ambidextrous use, and only middling-good triggers....

Desert Tech has solved the ambi flaw. But any firearm with a trigger separated that far from the sear cannot mechanically have a good trigger. I don't know if that flaw will ever be solved. A person that wants a bullpup isn't buying the firearm for its trigger, so I don't see that as a deal-killer.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

At Wikipedia L85 redirects to SA80 (Small Arms for the 1980s). Prototyped 1976, production of the L85A1 started 1985, replaced the L1A1 (FAL) as standard British service rifle in 1987. The article's sections on design flaws and A2 update programme deserve a Hollywood blurb "Shocking, Incredible, But True!!"

On the other hand, since it is a British subject, British English rules apply to editors of the article. "The changes from the SA80A2 design [to SA80A3] include ... a full-length rail system for optional add-ons such as a vertical foregrip, laser pointer and torch." Heaven forbid an American editor revise "torch" to "flashlight".

 

[gun'sRgood]

There's a few guys I knew, not living on earth anymore, but they said they could choose what they wanted to carry. Don't know if that's the case. I'm guessing that the guys would like them because they are compact for CQB and have the length of barrel for longer shots. The 10.5" SBR I like hits 300yds with it's EoT without problems. Perhaps a terminal ballistic effect that I'm ignorant of? Do those guys get to choose? To me, some of Sig's stuff would seem to fill the needs?

 

[Sfogaz]

For the Steyr Aug, FN FS2000, FN PS90 and Tavor there are very good aftermarket triggers available that offer pretty vast improvement over stock. The FS 2000 is front ejecting so other than the charging handle being on the left side its pretty much ambidextrous. PS90 is bottom ejecting and fully ambi. The Stey Aug and Tavor have left hand bolts available separately. I have all of the above, all with upgraded triggers and they are all very nice shooters and a bit better than battlefield accurate. The FN are pretty close to moa. Wouldn't part with any of them.

Honorable mention goes to Bushmaster M17s. Awesome upgrades available from K&M Aerospace in AZ. In stock form they run a bit hot but I've found them recently for under $1k and they are fun rifles guaranteed to attract eyes at the range.

 

[Ferris]

I have a PS90 and it's a fun gun, but to be honest I'm a bit disappointed that it's handicapped on what it should be. Full auto and SBR, as the P90 is, would be awesome. I only mention it because it has a ton of potential for a CQCB weapon, but in PS90 form it's not a go to gun.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Military equipment is as much about fashion as it is about effectiveness. Every conflict has to have it own "look" it seems-compare the look of the Mexican War with the Civil War, WWI with WWII-military uniforms change every 10 years, it seems. The US was taken by surprise by Korea, hence it has a WWII look. The bull pup is touted as more compact, more suited for carrying in vehicles, use in urban areas, and it looks more Space Age.

 

[FL-NC]

Coalition troops, not US. Maybe UK or AUS.

 

[benEzra]

The article's sections on design flaws and A2 update programme deserve a Hollywood blurb "Shocking, Incredible, But True!!"

I jumped over to Wikipedia and read that, and wow. What a comedy of errors.

 

[Goosey]

The bullpups have triggers comparable to other service rifles. Most military weapons don't have and never had "good triggers", so this is more of a preference of the civilian shooter than a concern for someone procuring tens of thousands of infantry weapons. In the far future they may even end up having electronic triggers which make this problem disappear.

 

[Ivy Mike]

Honorable mention to the Keltec RDB for its clever ejection system (it dumps the cartridges right down at your feet) and full ambi capability.

The triggers on a bullpup are always going to be compromised because of the trigger bars they have to use, but in terms of military triggers they're about average. These aren't target rifles remember.
There are things you can do to improve them but honestly, the world should just start copying the Tavor X95's trigger. It is genuinely good. Not great but good.

 

[CapnMac]

The more modern bullpups, with machined trigger connections, will be miles better than previous ones with bent wire trigger connections. Just the nature of how things work.

Designing the ejection to be more to the front than the side can make it easier to switch shoulders (MDR is a winner at this, and not alone). The harder ergonomic thing to "beat" is having the mag in your own armpit, strong or weak.

Keltech;s RDB is some good there, as the mag well is a bit further forward to leave that space for the ejection of the empties. Mind, you gain that through having a huge hole in the stock--so you need to stay out of the mud. Keltech's RDB abd RDF have another one of a bullpip's peculiarities--it;s curst hard to peek into the reciever.
The RDF also has a great long track that empties can pile up within--so the "ejection tube" best not get anything in it (or point much uphill)

And, of course the great uh-oh of the SA80, was, having imported engineers from Morris was that they could find no way to get oil to drip on the exhaust manifold . . .

 

[Ivy Mike]

The more modern bullpups, with machined trigger connections, will be miles better than previous ones with bent wire trigger connections. Just the nature of how things work.

Designing the ejection to be more to the front than the side can make it easier to switch shoulders (MDR is a winner at this, and not alone). The harder ergonomic thing to "beat" is having the mag in your own armpit, strong or weak.

Keltech;s RDB is some good there, as the mag well is a bit further forward to leave that space for the ejection of the empties. Mind, you gain that through having a huge hole in the stock--so you need to stay out of the mud. Keltech's RDB abd RDF have another one of a bullpip's peculiarities--it;s curst hard to peek into the reciever.
The RDF also has a great long track that empties can pile up within--so the "ejection tube" best not get anything in it (or point much uphill)

And, of course the great uh-oh of the SA80, was, having imported engineers from Morris was that they could find no way to get oil to drip on the exhaust manifold . . .

The Tavor is a good example of thought going into the trigger. The trigger bar pulls rather than pushes to release the sear and with a good length lever and not allowing a lot of deflection in the part, IMI was able to get a nice trigger. Your finger is better at pulling things than pushing them.
Having grown up shooting a standard layout rifle, I feel the layout of a bullpup takes some practice and training to unlearn your habits with a traditional layout. My feeling on it though is that is simply a matter of practice. Even if the AR or AK is faster at mag changes, is it fast enough to actually matter? Are you going to see that same speed deficit with a new recruit whose first serious foray into shooting is with a bullpup?

They could have made the SA-80 even more British with a positive ground for the optics.

 

[DustyGmt]

"The changes from the SA80A2 design [to SA80A3] include ... a full-length rail system for optional add-ons such as a vertical foregrip, laser pointer and torch." Heaven forbid an American editor revise "torch" to "flashlight".

Yeah, and "laser pointer" to "laser sight".

"Laser pointer" makes it sound like a tactical cat distraction device.

 

[wiscoaster]

...."Laser pointer" makes it sound like a tactical cat distraction device.

 

[Zerodefect]

The original FN FS2000 was great, if it was just a hair easier to hold onto. Like an AR rail or something, and less like an angry carp.

Too bad they screwed it up and removed the safety sear. Some evolved ergos would have made it an excellent platform.

 

[jmorris]

The original FN FS2000 was great,

The best thing about them is that the brass dribbles out the front into a nice little pile. The polar opposite of the Ruger Ranch rifle.

The triggers were pretty crummy even compared with other crummy triggers. The only AUG’s I have shot had the small integrated 1.5x optic. I would like to try out an A3 though.

 

[gun'sRgood]

I have a PS90 and it's a fun gun, but to be honest I'm a bit disappointed that it's handicapped on what it should be. Full auto and SBR, as the P90 is, would be awesome. I only mention it because it has a ton of potential for a CQCB weapon, but in PS90 form it's not a go to gun.

If you have an older one, and a rubber band, it's just about all that you want it to be. Or so I'm told. The barrel is actually pencil thin. It has a shroud. If you got the shorter barrel, in some legal fashion, It's a bit tricky to change

 

[Ferris]

If you have an older one, and a rubber band, it's just about all that you want it to be. Or so I'm told. The barrel is actually pencil thin. It has a shroud. If you got the shorter barrel, in some legal fashion, It's a bit tricky to change

LOL I get the impression this particular weapon is the Fun police's short watch list. I have a newer one with a gen 3 trigger pack, that I'd love to see what's out there for , since I'm not sure how I feel about polymer hammers, but I hear the fun police go after anyone buying upgrade parts to the pack. Better to just leave well enough alone. Once I move out NJ I might SBR it though.