Bullet Choice and Performance

[Shawnee]

I know the Advertising Dept, and gunscribblers want us all worrying about bullet performance way out yonder - but when we put the salesmanship aside in its' proper place for a minute and notice that a huge majority of deer (and hogs and other game) is shot within 250yds. (if not 150 !) or so - it seems to me most of us hunters should be thinking about/studying bullet performance at closer ranges in order to make our choices of bullet (and load).

Now I know there are two schools of thought - one that wants the bullet to remain in the deer so all its' effect is expended within the deer, maximizing (theoretically) the chance of dropping the deer in its' tracks - and another group who want their bullets to pass all the way through the deer from any angle thus (theoretically) "leaving a better blood trail", but also applying some of its' energy (which may actually be excess anyway) on the dirt, shrubbery etc. beyond the deer.

I happen to favor the "use all the force within the deer" approach and, as a result, I think many bullets touted as "The Annointed Deer Bullet" for a given caliber are actually too tough for the ranges at which 90% of deer are shot. And I think the result is often an increased chance that the wounded deer will manage to escape the hunter to die for the benefit of just the coyotes and vultures. (That's also part of the reason I favor .24 and .25 calibers as deersticks.)

So what do Y'All think ? For the calibers you've used a bit - what bullet weights and designs do you think do a great job on those 250yd.-or-less shots, and why ? And if you knew your shots would be no farther than 150yds., what bullet/load would you choose ?

 

[eclarsen]

Recent advertisements or articles on tests of bullet performance (those I've seen any way) look at bullet expansion at various distances. Seems to me manufacturers are examining this very issue--how well does the bullet in question expand and high (close) and low (far) velocities?

"If I knew"--I haven't taken a shot at greater than 150yds in my life! I take that back...I haven't taken a shot at game beyond 150 yds. At the range I have shot from the bench at 200 yds.

Because I haven't had opportunities to take shots on game at extreme range (defined as range I haven't practiced at to gain confidence in my ability) I'm not in need of bullets that are designed for "performance" at 300+ yds.

Remington core-lokt (.270 Win) has been fine for me on pronghorn (125yds) and mule deer (100yds).

Unfortunately, my uncle didn't leave detailed enough notes for me to know what the bullet type was on his wildcat 300 mag cartridge that I used on caribou and moose once. The bullet fragmented on the moose, so I think I'd use a stouter bullet next time.

For the pronghorn and smaller deer species my shots haven't required more premium bullets.

Larger deer species--if get into reloading, I'll be using premium bullets like Nosler partition for the wt retention and penetration.

 

[35 Whelen]

I happen to agree with those whom want the bullet to pass completely through. The reason is that if a bullet will remain in a deer "so all its' effect is expended within the deer" on a classic broadside shot, then it won't penetrate sufficiently if a raking or some other angular shot were offered. I believe this to be especially true of the smaller (.24 & .25) caliber bullets you mention. And no, I won't wait for a better shot; I'll just use a better bullet.

For several years I hunted with 257 Ackley Improved and loaded the early 100 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets to around 3250 fps, maybe a shade more. The bullet, when directed into the lungs of broadside deer dropped them like the Hammer of Thor, but rarely exited. This became a point of concern with me because I realized that were I have to shoot a quartering deer either in the flank or in the shoulder, the bullet very likely would never make it to the lung/heart area. So I discontinued its use and switched to the Nosler Partition.

Speaking of the Partition, I don't use them an awful lot, but I think they're near ideal for those individuals who want a bullet that will do all of it's expanding well within an animal. They're sort of the best of both worlds in that the jacket at the front of the bullet is thin enough to promote instant and violent expansion, yet the remainder of the bullet (that which is behind the partition)is heavy enough to promote ample penetration. I've used them almost exclusively in my 280 just because they're so accurate. I run the 140 gr. Partition at 3010 fps in this rifle. I've only recovered one of these bullets when several years ago I shot a nice size doe at about 60 yards directly in the chest. She dropped at the shot as though the earth had been jerked from under her feet. I immediately began looking for an exit would, but instead found a tuft of hair sticking up on the rear of her right hindquarter. It was the bullet. It had penetrated the entire length of her body.

Personally, I've never used a deer bullet that I thought was too tough. If there were one out there, and I don't really think there is, I'd have to say it'd be the Barnes TSX. I've yet to kill an animal with one, but as I've related in other posts, my Dad used my 35 Whelen and a Barnes 225 gr. TSX on a large bull elk. The bullet entered under the tail and stopped in the right shoulder. (He'd already hit the bull and it was headed for the timber at dusk) The last bull I killed was with a .35 caliber 225 gr. Nosler Partition. The bull was running at a slight angle about 75 yds. away. I shot him and saw him flinch, but he went behind some trees before I could shoot again. In a few seconds, he stepped out at about the same angle. I shot him again, and he finally dropped. Post mortem examination of the bullets' path revealed what was in my opinion, lackluster penetration. I'd have liked the bullets to at least penetrate to the skin of the off shoulder, but they did not. A close look at the construction of this particular Partition bullet leads me to believe that the partition is too far back on the shank of the bullet. Now, the .35 caliber 225 gr. Barnes TSX isthe only bullet I use for elk.

These days for deer and hogs, I like the plain ol' Remington Core-Lokt bullets. I know they're not glitzy or popular, but I've had very good luck with them. With the aforementioned 257 Ackley, I shot a nice West Texas whitetail at somewhere a little over 200 yds. He was quartering to me and I hit him in the point of the shoulder with a 100 gr. Core-Lokt loaded to 3300. The bullet broke the shoulder, sliced through the lungs and stopped under the skin on the far side. Not complete penetration, but close enough. I still have that bullet and it retained about 60% of its weight. Not bad for a mass produced bullet. I also had the opportunity to kill three hogs in the span of about 30 seconds with this bullet. Again, stellar performance. This bullet is all I use in my 308; I buy them in bulk.

35W

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I shot an elk at about 100 yards as it paused momentarily on the edge of a forest road. I was using a custom '03 Springfield in .35 Brown-Whelen, with 225-grain Nosler Partition Jackets.

The elk came running through the woods, jumped down onto the road, and in the next jump was gone -- all I remember is my sight picture as the shot broke.

I went to the spot where I saw him last, and found tracks and fresh dirt on the snow. Looking down the mountain, I could see a broad trail through the snow-dusted leaves. It ended about a hundred yards away at a large boulder. Through my binos, I could see the "boulder" had a little stumpy tail.

When I skinned him out, his left leg fell off -- the shoulder was shattered. I rolled him over to skin out the other side, and his right leg fell off. That Nosler PJ broke both shoulders and took out the heart and lungs in the process, and disappeared down-range.

I say the hole kills. The bigger and deeper the hole, the better. So I want full penetration.

 

[Shawnee]

Keep 'em comin', Gents... no matter which "school of thought" you favor. We've already gotten two great responses - should be a good discussion !

"35 Whelen"... I agree with you 100% on the Core-Lokt. Couple friends of mine (both quite good shots) who used .270s forever wouldn't use anything else on deer and always had superb performance from the Core-Lokt. The few times I've used them in .243s I couldn't ask for any better terminal performance and, in 30/30 they have been a gem.

Come on, Folks - jump in here with your experiences !

 

[stownsend]

My performance issues with core-lokt have been in the instance when my shots were too close. When using my 300 win. mag. at short distances the core-lokt have not expanded at all, pencil hole in and out. I have since switched to ballistic tipped and last year used the Winchest XP3 with very good results. Especially considering my shot last fall was at about 25 yards and through a sholder and the bullet stayed intact and exited.
In my .243 I have preferred the ballistic tipped as well, but have not had the issues that I have with the 300. The ballistic tipped tend to not exit when the shots are at longer distances, but the deer do go down. Took my first buck with a 243 90 gr ballistic tip at about 300 yards.
Both guns are good deer slayers.

 

[sarduy]

i just use a 180gr 30-06 Pointed-Soft-Point.

they will ddrop from any angle and a lot of energy will transfer!

 

[skinewmexico]

I think you have to look at elk and other big game differently than deer and smaller game. I love core-lokts for deer and smaller, and can remember when it was the premium bullet. So I'd have to say using premium bullets on deer and smaller animals is just giving in to gunmag advertising. I would use a premium bullet for elk, like a partition, or most likely a Swift A-Frame. The one Barnes TSX I've seen expanded just like in the pictures, but I've only seen one, because all the others passed thru.

 

[Larry E]

I'm in the make a hole through both sides of a broadside game animal in case there's one that's not standing broadside. I've used Nosler Partitions in both a .250-3000 (100 gr at 3000 fps), and 7x57 (140 gr at 2900 fps) with no complaints at all. My theory is that if the bullet expands and is still strong enough to go all the way through it's not likely to blow up on the surface or a rib. My dad's favorite bullet was the 150 gr Remington Bronze Point - don't ask why I don't know - and he killed both mule deer and elk with his .300 Savage because he didn't take shots he wasn't sure of. The Bronze Point is a lousy bullet IMHO because it can blow up like a varmint bullet.

 

[Bigfoot]

Full penetration for me. The energy dump arguement has some merit but recent studies have shown (sorry, I can't link them) that when a bullet exits it has very little energy left. So you lose very little energy transfer with a full penetration but gain a much better blood trail. Plus as has mentioned it gains you a better chance of hitting the vitals on less than perfect angled shots.

 

[matrem]

The way I see it,there are two main issues to bullet performance.First of all, it has to reach enough "vital stuff" to kill in a reasonable time frame,killing quickly is every true hunters goal.
After that there is one other issue: (aside from central nervous system DRTs)
The combination of the entry (or how quickly it will open to such) wound size & how much energy is expended in animal through expansion or initial bullet diameter/shape.(preferably in vitals)
Exit wounds are never a bad thing & "bigger" is always better assuming equal bullet performance and our ability to hit where we need to.

 

[Wildfire]

My 2 cents.

Hey There:
While we all know that shot placement is the key we all know that we use bigger guns then we really need to take certian game.

You are right . There are two thoughts out there and I for one would not argue with either.
Cute little pictures of bullet performance have swayed many hunters and always will.
We would all be ticked if we could not see them and get info from the makers as to their findings. Many of us , mainly handloaders choose not to live by their claims. I like BIG. I use a ML 95% of the time with 300 grain plus bullets. Some exit some don't. None of us can accurately predict what will happen after the bang. Many of us have hunted for a long , long time and know what works. The next guy is not wrong because he choose a different way. Most bullets have a velocity range and will perform very well when they are used at their peak performing velocity. Too fast for some will give bad results. I have heard many talk down about the Nosler BTs. But when used at their correct velocity they work very well. I agree 110 % that most of our shots are no where near as far as we try to be prepared for.

It is very interesting to see such a wide range of bullets and calibers that work so well. kind of like being a kid in a candy store. They want one of each.
While many beleive that the bullet must exit to be of any value . I have learned this is not some chiseled in stone rule. Even amoung the best of us.
My last big Buck fell dead and I was shocked to find no exit hole. The next 2 deer were the same way. Very dead, with no exit holes. WoW.
I kind of liked that. My .270 with 150 grain Nosler BTs droped and 8 and a very nice large 6 point in the UP a few years back. No exit holes and they were both shot at about 70 yards.
So my take on this subject is . An exit hole can be OK but not some chiseled in stone requirement for killing game.

 

[Cypress]

I mostly hog hunt nowadays and like the little buggers to get every ft/lb of what I'm serving. I always go for the shoulder shot because I've found it the most effective. Even if you don't hit spine it slows them down enough to put another round in them. I've been doing some extensive testing with the newer designs and the best so far is the Nosler Accubond (270 Win. 130 grain to be exact). They expand quickly and perfectly and I have usually found them under the hide on the off side after smashing both shoulders and the spine (even in a 300lb boar). Weight retention has been 70-80% with absolutely no seperation. This year I have some Swift Sciroccos and Hornady Interbonds I'm tinkering with because I never could get my .270 to shoot the accubonds as well as I would like.
My .300 WSM loves them though.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I think shock and energy are relied on too much these days. Too many people think there is some magical amount of energy required to kill a certain game animal, or are too enamored by "hydro-static shock." These things can be important, but I have seen large amounts of both fail to work as advertised too many times to trust them. Blood trails and exit wounds work, every time.

Plus, I hunt deer, black bear, and elk with the same rifle and load. And I prefer quartering shots, and shots through the shoulder. Hence, I prefer moderate to heavy-for caliber bullets that offer controlled expansion and high weight retention. Regardless of the caliber I choose, I prefer sectional density and value momentum over energy. I currently hunt with a 7 Mag, but I've never shot anything under 160 gr. I start with 160 gr Partitions and am currently shooting 160 gr Accubonds over 63gr RL22 or 71 gr Ramshot Magnum. Both shoot MOA or better when I do my part, and chrono about 2960 fps. I have been thinking about trying the 162 gr Hornady SSTs and truth be told, I'd jump up to the 175 gr bullet weight before I went down in weight.

 

[35 Whelen]

+1 MTMilitiaman

 

[Shawnee]

GREAT STUFF so far, Folks !!!

C'mon Lads (and Ladies) - no one is getting flamed - jump in here with whatever you think and why - there may be 1000 "newbies" and "undecideds" out there learning some actual good stuff from this thread (and thankful it isn't devolving into the usual claiber fistfights!).

 

[HM2PAC]

For my .30 cal hunting rifles I like the Sierra GameKeepers. They expand well. However recently I have started loading Remington Core-Lokt's. Just as good penetration, and when I can recover the bullet, the jacket is intact. Sometimes a nice hot .30-06 load with the Sierra's will separate the jacket from the core.

In my .444Marlin I really like the 265gr Interlock FP on top of 44gr of H4198. It is a bit much I'll admit, but I am a bit of a recoil junky. I've found the Hornady bullets to be VERY HARD. Velocities that will open Core-Lokt's have failed, for me, to deform the Interlock's, even in 7x57.

Pass through or not does not matter much to me. I like the idea of the bullet staying in the animal and transferring all of it's energy. Flipside: I don't like that the bullet ran out of energy.

I also like the idea of a pass-through that leaves a large exit wound that will aid in tracking. Flipside: I don't like the idea that the bullet may have done less damage.

As with most things, I try to look at both sides.

 

[Regolith]

I've always used Core-Lokt. They perform well enough on deer, and they're cheap enough to practice with. Last deer I shot with one died right there. Didn't recover the bullet - it went in one side and out the other. Shot was with a Ruger M77 chambered in .280 Rem. at about 75-100 yards. I believe it was a 150gr. bullet, but it might have been a 140 or 130 gr.

For larger game, I'd probably want to go with a higher-end bullet, but for deer sized game they're plenty.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I don't have nearly the experience of some of you guys, but I'll thrown in 1 or 2 cents:

As mentioned, I believe the Remington Core-Lokt is indeed a good bullet for deer/antelope, etc. But do not confuse this issue with the fact that the factory loads into which they are loaded, Remington "Express" ammo, is pretty crappy ammo, accuracy wise. But buying these *bullets* and loading them up yourself is a good plan. Actually, I think Rem has a premium line of ammo which also uses the Core-Lokt bullet, so that might be a good choice.

On the expend all the energy in the animal vs. go all the way through and exit: As one who has been on blood trail of a whitetail with very few and far between blood spatters, where I have to go in concentric circles to find the next drop, I am definitely in the camp that wants complete penetration through the far side, so that I have an exit hole to enhance the blood trail. Despite all the talk of bang flops, DRT, and jerking the earth out from under, *most* animals have to be trailed, and every year there are many many many animals lost after an initial trail is followed then ends.

So to the people that say, "I want the bullet to stop just under the skin on the far side so that expends all of it's energy, not blow straight through", I say in response, "I want the bullet to just barely punch through the skin on the far side, having expended 99.5% of its energy in the animal, but making an exit hole, then traveling 1 foot and then ker-plopping on the ground." That is ideal. You want full expansion of course, regardless, but I want to err on the side of making and exit hole and keep going, when in doubt.

And Mr. Whelen above demonstrates why you do want a tougher bullet for elk. Although I have never shot an elk, the conventional wisdom is that they are very very tough, can run a long ways when hit, and that their skin is so thick that the entry hole can seal up very quickly and prevent any blood trail. Look at how tough Mr. Whelen's elk was - the bullet completely broke BOTH shoulders AND it took out the heart & lungs, and he STILL ran 100 yards. Folks, 100 yards is an eternity in thick cover with no blood trail. So I think that on elk, (a) you definitely want an exit hole, and (b) they are much larger and a bit tougher to penetrate. When you combine both (a) and (b), you want a really tough bullet when going for the vitals, seems to me. Personally when I finally get a rifle elk hunt, I'll be using a 220 or premium bonded 180 in .30-06, or possibly my 9.3x62mm. Of course, if you just shoot them in the neck, you don't have to worry about it.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi HM2PAC...

I hear Ya about the hardness of Hornady bullets. I've noted that in their .243 87gr. BTHP and especially with their 180gr. .44 bullets. I've shot a number of deer with them in my Ruger Super Blackhawk (ranges usually 50-80yds.) and, except for a few neck shots from the front, I don't recall any that didn't leave a pretty large exit hole. It sure makes a mess of the chest cavity on the way through. Never really paid attention to the blood trail because that bullet (and the 200-grainer) has dropped everything either DRT or within a couple jumps.



Hey "Sauce"...

Having to do the "concentric circles" gig is definitely a downer. The last deer I took with a bow was shot at about 20yds. in thick woods from a tall tree stand with a 40-lb. recurve. The arrow entered essentially the top of the deer - went into the lungs - but never pierced the underside. Thus the wound didn't put any blood on the ground and I had to circle until I started finding the wee droplets of blood spray being blown out when they deer exhaled. I (finally!) recovered the deer but decided then and there not to bow hunt from tree stands anymore.

 

[Wildfire]

Heavy is good.

Hey again:
Well I must agree with most of what was said here . I like heavy....
As stated before (maybe not in the same class) I use a ML. The 300 grain
SST/ML bullets did not expand after shooting many deer with them. I stopped.
Very accurate Yes. Some may not care for this but. I am not by any means discounting the value of lead or lead based bullets. Make sure ya don't missunderstand me here.
I have been using the all copper Barnes MZ bullets now. Wow ! 100% plus expansion. Zero weight loose. I mean Zero. All recovered bullets were weighed.
These things have huge hollow points and are extremely accurate. When they hit the deer you will know. They hit with a loud smack.
The 250 grainers did not blow thru. The 300s did. i killed 3 deer this last year with the 250s and was very impressed with how they worked. My son used the 300s. Same thing. No tracking....... Just very dead deer.

If these bullets work in a center fire as well as in the ML, I will have found the perfect bullet for me. I do like heavy for caliber no matter what. But must say that after killing so many deer with both styles . Complete blow thru and the other of finding the bullet in the deer . I have found no reason for the need of a blood trail exit hole.

This is not from just poping one or two deer. We live in Michigan and have high bag limits, early and late seasons. We are able to see the results of many shots and what works . The results that I just told of have been from as many as 25 to 30 kills on deer with none lost and no wild tracking ordeals.
We can not use center fire rifles in SW lower Mich. So the ML was our choice. We have never been sorry.

Complete blow thru does work very well aslo. I used to use a "White" which tossed a 480 grain all lead bullet. Never had a deer take more then a few steps after being hit with one . Also never found a fired bullet.