Terminal ballistics case study (7.62x39) - opinions?

[Newtosavage]

I posted this in the handloading forum as well, but I'm curious to hear constructive opinions on the terminal performance of one of my handloads. Here's the scenario:

I had the opportunity to take a young hunter on their first deer hunt the other day, and chose my Savage 7.62x39 bolt action for the task, using a handload I created specifically for deer hunting. It's a very pleasant rifle to shoot, esp. for younger and smaller folks.

Fortunately, or unfortunately (you be the judge) we had a chance to recover the bullet, so I was able to see how it performed.

The load is a Lapua case with RL-7 powder under a 160-grain Hornady FXT, the same bullet Hornady uses in their 30-30 LeverEvolution ammo. I thought it would be a good choice for this caliber and the velocities it generates. This bullet left the bore at 2225 fps, about 100 fps slower than it leaves my Model 94 Winchester in the 30-30 LeverEvolution ammo.

The deer was sharply quartering away, and the bullet entered at the point of the Right rear thigh, then traveled basically the length of the deer and lodged in the front Left shoulder blade. Obviously there was no exit hole. While quartering that shoulder, we noticed a hole in the ribcage but not through the shoulder, so I knew we probably had the bullet in there still. When we boned out that shoulder, sure enough there it was, still intact.

You can judge the expansion for yourself. The bullet retained 114 grains of weight (71%).

I was a little concerned about the shot when she hunched up like most gut shot deer do, but she only went about 40 yards. There was no blood trail due to the location of the entrance wound and no exit hole. I estimate the bullet traveled about 38" through the deer.

With this information, I'm curious whether I should change bullets or stay with this formula. Constructive thoughts are welcome.

Thanks.

 

[Gtscotty]

Seems like pretty ideal performance given the constraints of the chosen cartridge. What was the shot range? Are you concerned that the bullet might not open up enough on broadside shots?

 

[Newtosavage]

Approx. 75 yards.

Yea, I'm wondering whether I should drop down in bullet weight to increase the velocity. But I like the idea of the energy this bullet will carry to 200 (max range IMO). This bullet also has a pretty good BC for the diameter and weight, unlike the BC of the lighter .308 bullets.

 

[adcoch1]

That actually looks like good performance, and if it had missed the shoulder blade, would have been a complete pass through. I hate that extreme quartering away shot unless I have a powerful rifle since you hit big bones after traveling through the whole animal, but this looks like a clean kill. I don't believe dropping weight on the bullet will improve performance on this kind of shot, this is just a limitation of the intermediate sized cartridges. I like pass through shots for the blood trail to follow, but a 40 yard run isn't too bad to track without one. My .02

 

[Newtosavage]

My young hunter had this doe broadside for 4-5 sec. but wasn't ready to shoot, then the doe started turning and the hunter panicked a little and shot anyway. Fortunately, it made it through the "good stuff" and it all worked out. But after they shot, their reaction was "was she turned too much?" I'm like "yea, but I think you got away with it anyway."

I'm real curious to see what the exit hole would be on a broadside shot, at a further distance. Just need a few pigs to cooperate now.

 

[swampcrawler]

The only other bullets I'd suggest looking at are the Barnes tac-Xt designed for the 300 blk, and the nosler Ballistic Tip which is very popular with the guys shooting 30-30 contenders.

But I think the performance you got was quite good. As for going to a lighter bullet, I just don't know if the velocity gained from a low velocity cartridge would net any gain in performance.

Very interesting to see how it did for you. As someone who myself is recoil sensitive, I'm always very interested in seeing how these little cartridges perform.

 

[horsey300]

If you're unhappy or worried (and I'm not saying you shouldn't be) try a lighter bullet maybe the 123 sst over some cfe blk hodgdon says you can move a 125 between 2377 and 2554, the sst has a b.c. .295. Normally I don't like sst because they are so volatile, but my mv on my cartridges are much closer to 3000, the sst might be perfect for your requirements. In a true .308 diameter, (instead of a 7.62 pill .001" difference) you could try an etip 150 or a Barnes but I think the lower mv will be your enemy there too. You already have plenty of penetration, if you want shock and awe go lighter faster and do the homework to decide how far your shots should be. Sometimes you can't have it both ways, if that deer would have been farther out, you might not have seen any expansion at all and then your high b.c. on a broadside would have made you look the fool and all the energy would have penciled clear through to the dirt unless you broke some serious bone.

ETA... with that fast 123, at 200 yds you'd still have close to 950 ft lbs and only a 6" drop from 100 making a 150yd zero dead from muzzle to 200, I used 2400 fps on hornady calculator and worked this up for you to check out: http://m.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator

 

[salt&battery]

over 2200 fps with a 160 grain bullet is real fast. how long is the barrel? I never saw those velocities in a 39

 

[Newtosavage]

Salt, it's a 20" barrel on my model 10 "scout" rifle (although I now shoot it with the scope in a conventional position).

2200+ is slightly compressed load of RL-7

 

[salt&battery]

in my hornady manual a 123 grain bullet with Rel 7 goes 2300 fps in a 20" SKS barrel. I will try a compressed load of Rel 7

 

[PowerG]

I'd say you did OK, the lack of pass through was due to the angle of the deer. I also strongly prefer a bullet exit, but let's face it you're not shooting a high energy round here and you did get good penetration. Many years ago while hunting with a 30-30 with Silvertips I had a couple of large bodied bucks on which I didn't get bullet exits, in both cases the bullets were just under the skin on the off side, and these were good broadside shots. I also don't see any advantage to a polymer tip in your situation, however I don't think you're going to get enough velocity out of this setup to cause a bullet to come apart on you. I've always tried to improve the efficiency of my hunting setup but in the end you've got a deer on the ground and it's hard to argue with that.

 

[Newtosavage]

Horsey, I shot a few pigs with the Hornady ammo, featuring the SST 123 grainer. Wasn't really impressed with the effect it had so I thought I'd try heavier...

 

[Newtosavage]

Salt, I'm not sure if my Lapua cases don't hold a little more powder too.

 

[Newtosavage]

Thanks for the math Horsey. I will take a look at those. I do understand what you're saying about compromise.

Another reason I chose this bullet (I tried a lot of them) was due to the .5-.6" groups I get from it at 100 yards. It's accuate as heck. This is the 2nd deer shot with this load, but the first was a head shot on a doe at 100 because I knew I could make it with ease. And I did.

 

[salt&battery]

Salt, I'm not sure if my Lapua cases don't hold a little more powder too.

OK will try to get some of their cases. they must hold some more powder

 

[Llama Bob]

That seems to me like about as good as you can expect given the cartridge. I don't think you're going to easily get more penetration without going to a bonded or copper bullet. You could experiment there I guess.

What's the bore size on this gun? Is it really .308?

 

[Newtosavage]

Savage is a true .308 according to my mic and the factory specs, but it still shoots .309-.311 ammo into sub 2" groups at 100 all day. I've mic'd and shot about 8 different kinds of ammo through it now, and it handles them all very very well. These particular loads tied for the "most accurate" with another load that launched a 150-grain Core-Lokt at 2300 fps.

 

[Browning]

The bullet you used did what it was supposed to, personally I think that grain weight is a bit too heavy though. I've also read reports of yaw in that particular 160 grain bullet. Never used it though and it's not from personal experience, maybe do a search on it to learn more.

No experience using 7.62x39 on deer either.

The rest is personal experience though. I've successfully hunted several hogs with with both an SKS and an AK. I've used Federal Soft Points (it was either 123 gr. or 124 gr), Hornady SST, Wolf 123 grain Soft Points and ultra-low cost Wolf WPA 123 grain JHP just to see how it would perform since I have a ton of it

The only one that didn't hold together was the WPA. That fragmented on the shoulder, left the nose and some fragments and the core and base went out the other side.

This is what I dug out of him. The rest passed through.

Down here hogs are considered vermin and it's what I had at the time. Just saying ... on hogs even bargain basement 7.62x39 Wolf hollow point can drop animals of similar weight. I mostly used the Federal Soft Points for hog hunting though, seemed like the most conventional choice at the time (several years back before there were as many choices as there are now).

If I was picking a hunting load for the 7.62x39 now I'd probably go with Federal Fusion, Hornady SST (which you've already said that you didn't like) or one of the Barnes bullets/factory ammunition based on gel and positive reports both from other hunters that I know as well as positive reports from off the web.

There's kind of a reason most loads for the 7.62x39 are in that grain weight, it's ideal for that caliber.

Here's some info on one of the Barnes gel tests.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_7.62x39_123gr_TAC-X.pdf

The Barnes is the one I'm the most interested in just because TSX is my favorite brand/load in .223.

 

[LoonWulf]

Id call that excellent performance. My own experience with lower velocity rounds is that you won't really get much "shock" till you start launching at 2700 fps. I base this theory on my use of my grendel and my 6x47. Both rounds when loaded to around 2500fps produce pretty much the same effect you experienced, but with smaller holes.
I havent done it with the grendel, but droping back in bullet weight with the 6x47 (100-85)and increasing velocity to around 2900fps Ive seen much faster incapacitation with properly placed shots. I am also planning on expermenting with my 300 blackout in a similar manner, tho im thinking ill rechamber to 7.62x40wt to up the velocity some.

Down side is shot selection is more limited "looks like you got away with it" usually means shooting till the critter falls over.

 

[Newtosavage]

The bullet you used did what it was supposed to, personally I think that grain weight is a bit too heavy though.

Thanks. That's what I'm asking as I am fairly new to hand loading and bullet selction.

I've also read reports of yaw in that particular 160 grain bullet

Do you mean in the air or in the critter? I've loaded and shot probably 50-60 of these rounds at the range, out to 300 yards and they are shockingly accurate. It's not hard for me to print 3" groups at 300 yards with this rifle and these handloads. I've done it enough times that I don't even bother anymore. These are exceptionally accurate bullets out of my particular rifle.

I've successfully hunted several hogs with with both an SKS and an AK. I've used Federal Soft Points (it was either 123 gr. or 124 gr), Hornady SST, Wolf 123 grain Soft Points and ultra-low cost Wolf WPA 123 grain JHP just to see how it would perform since I have a ton of it

The only one that didn't hold together was the WPA. That fragmented on the shoulder, left the nose and some fragments and the core and base went out the other side.

This is what I dug out of him. The rest passed through.

Down here hogs are considered vermin and it's what I had at the time. Just saying ... on hogs even bargain basement 7.62x39 Wolf hollow point can drop animals of similar weight. I mostly used the Federal Soft Points for hog hunting though, seemed like the most conventional choice at the time (several years back before there were as many choices as there are now).

Same here, and I've actually shot (literally) hundreds of feral pigs in my life, but nearly all were with factory ammo. Of the ones I've shot with a 7.62x39 (not many), I had reasonable success with the Hornady steel case 123 gr. SST and the TulAmmo 152 soft points. I did use the Wincheseter 123's on a deer a year ago, with decent success, but I felt I could have had a shorter tracking. That's when I began handloading this round and experimenting with different bullets.

The Barnes is the one I'm the most interested in just because TSX is my favorite brand/load in .223.

I may have to try that bullet in a .308 for this round next...

 

[Newtosavage]

LoonWulf, that's good info. I suppose I'm used to lower velocity, heavier rounds, growing up with a 30-30 and now shooting a Muzzleloader for many of my deer. I do like how little meat is damaged by a big slow bullet, and being a lifelong bowhunter, a tracking job doesn't worry me at all. Of course, a short one is always appreciated.

 

[horsey300]

I thought of something else, a flat based 125 pro hunter might do the trick, my experiences with the prohunters are that they are laser accurate and hit like Thor's hammer and even at 50 yds (2900 fps) they travelled a good 3' of venison to exit (leaving quite an intense wound tract).

 

[Browning]

Do you mean in the air or in the critter?

What I've heard has all been with paper.

Did a quick search to find something besides a forum and came up with this ...

http://www.gunsandammo.com/reloading/reloading-the-7-62x39/

A word about bullet weights. The typical military load for the 7.62×39 uses 123-grain bullets. Our pressure barrel, which was 1:10, shot these and bullets up to about 150 grains very well. We did shoot some 160-grain bullets (see chart) and noticed some evidence of yawing on the target. If I were building up a gun for the 7.62×39 and wanted to shoot heavy bullets, I would use a 1:8 barrel. If cartridge overall length is a consideration, the heavy bullets intrude too deeply into the case and use up case volume. That compromises performance. Of course, in single-shot guns you can modify the throating to allow a longer cartridge OAL.

Easier to see the sideways bullet shape clearly in paper or cardboard rather than a hide which could be obscured a great deal by blood, dirt, tissue or hair. There might also be the guesstimate or assumption that the bullet was deflected off something (tree branch, brush, hit the ground and popped back up again) before it tagged Bambi's mom or Porky or that it was just a strange looking wound entrance/track. Some hunters might not notice at all. Depends I guess.

At any rate what reports I've seen of the x39 160 grain has all been pretty much like that. Killed what interest I had in trying it out.

I've loaded and shot probably 50-60 of these rounds at the range, out to 300 yards and they are shockingly accurate. It's not hard for me to print 3" groups at 300 yards with this rifle and these handloads. I've done it enough times that I don't even bother anymore. These are exceptionally accurate bullets out of my particular rifle.

Is this the first and only animal you've dropped with this load?

Same here, and I've actually shot (literally) hundreds of feral pigs in my life, but nearly all were with factory ammo. Of the ones I've shot with a 7.62x39 (not many), I had reasonable success with the Hornady steel case 123 gr. SST and the TulAmmo 152 soft points. I did use the Wincheseter 123's on a deer a year ago, with decent success, but I felt I could have had a shorter tracking. That's when I began handloading this round and experimenting with different bullets.

If this has been the one and only time you've used it I'd probably give it another shot based on its accuracy.

--

I can't say I've ever used or even fired Winchester Soft Points out of any of my x39's. For whatever reason Federal Soft Points has been widely available here while I haven't seen any of the Winchester Soft Points at all. Have you done any hunting with Federal SP's? If so how did it compare to the Winchester?

I may have to try that bullet in a .308 for this round next...

Barnes is some good stuff. I seriously doubt you'd be disappointed.

When I had a 6.8 SPC and Silver State Armory was around before they got bought out by Nosler their TSX loads were the heat. After Nosler acquired them no more Barnes concoctions. I was a sad panda.

 

[Newtosavage]

I thought of something else, a flat based 125 pro hunter might do the trick, my experiences with the prohunters are that they are laser accurate and hit like Thor's hammer and even at 50 yds (2900 fps) they travelled a good 3' of venison to exit (leaving quite an intense wound tract).

I actually looked at that one just the other day. My concern, and reason for selecting the "30-30" version of the 160 gr. FTX, was the lower expected velocities. This round should be able to carry 1000 ft. lbs. to 200 yards with handloads, but at that distance we're talking a1800 fps, so I want a bullet that is designed to expand at 1800 if a 200 yard shot is all I get.

 

[stringnut]

The bullet performed fine for what it is. A cup and core bullet made for 2000 fps give or take a bit. After passing thru that much deer it's not suprising it didn't exit. Mushroomed well and weight loss was acceptable. Broadside would probably have been a pass thru, but, maybe not. At that speed you will have more stay inside than with something faster. You can go lighter and faster , however, that is no guarantee of anything. Many of the light bullets for caliber are made to be driven hard. At the velocity attainable with 7.62 ×39 expansion may not be great and the blood trail may still be skimpy. You are just shooting deer and a great deal of power is not required. No reason to overanalyze something if it already works!