Terminal ballistics case study (7.62x39) - opinions?

[horsey300]

Let me get back to you on the pro hunter at 1800, still got quite a few left, and 1 last frozen pumpkin. I'll set one up at 500 and bring back some pictures.

 

[LoonWulf]

Let me get back to you on the pro hunter at 1800, still got quite a few left, and 1 last frozen pumpkin. I'll set one up at 500 and bring back some pictures.

Omg YES!....Tho i doubt it will be as exciting as im hoping.

 

[adcoch1]

My sks was still minute of pumpkin at 400 yards but i didn't have more range distance at the time. I do want to do some long distance with my cz527 when i can find time.
Newtosavage's work on good hunting loads is what got me looking at loading for the x39

I also look forward to that 500 yard picture...

 

[Newtosavage]

At any rate what reports I've seen of the x39 160 grain has all been pretty much like that. Killed what interest I had in trying it out.

I can understand why, but if you get a chance, try these 160 FTX's I'm telling you, they are tack drivers out of my 7.62x39, otherwise I would have moved on to another bullet.

Is this the first and only animal you've dropped with this load?

2nd but the first was a head shot on a doe at about 100. She was DRT I found this example interesting because I was able to recover the bullet. That doesn't happen very often.

I can't say I've ever used or even fired Winchester Soft Points out of any of my x39's. For whatever reason Federal Soft Points has been widely available here while I haven't seen any of the Winchester Soft Points at all. Have you done any hunting with Federal SP's? If so how did it compare to the Winchester?

The Winchester 123's are supremely accurate from my gun. This current handload with the 160 FXT's is the only thing I've tried that is more accurate, and it ain't by much. 1" at 100 was simple with the Winchester 123's, but I can do even better with the 160 FXT's over RL-7 and Lapua cases, I found.

I shot one spike a year ago, broadside, with the Win. 123's. Got a clean pass through but the exit hole wasn't very large and it ran a good 75 yards. It wasn't a big deer either. Shot was 100 yards exactly. MV on that round was 2350 IIRC. After seeing how far he ran, I decided to try handloading a bigger bullet that might expand a little more. I can't say this one expanded any more, but the doe didn't go as far. She fell within sight of where she was standing when she was shot. Of course, very small sample size I know, but that's what we get to work with most years...

I'm intrigued by the Barnes mention now. Will try.

 

[Newtosavage]

"Many of the light bullets for caliber are made to be driven hard. At the velocity attainable with 7.62 ×39 expansion may not be great and the blood trail may still be skimpy..."

Yes, this is a concern. That a lighter bullet may not be designed for 1800-2000 fps impacts. Again, that's why I was looking at 30-30 bullets.

"No reason to overanalyze something if it already works!"

I agree. Just wanted confirmation that this was what "working" looked like. Sounds like it is.

 

[Newtosavage]

My sks was still minute of pumpkin at 400 yards but i didn't have more range distance at the time. I do want to do some long distance with my cz527 when i can find time.
Newtosavage's work on good hunting loads is what got me looking at loading for the x39

I also look forward to that 500 yard picture...

I do so like my bolt action 7.62x39, and so does every single person who shoots it. I've had more than one person tell me that it's "just" the right amount of recoil. When I bought it, I really had no idea I'd enjoy or use it this much. It's been such a fun gun to own, to loan, and to load for.

 

[Newtosavage]

Incidentally, I've found the 2-7x33 Leupold VX-1 (about $199 on sale in most places) to be the ideal scope for this rifle.

 

[horsey300]

Yes, this is a concern. That a lighter bullet may not be designed for 1800-2000 fps impacts. Again, that's why I was looking at 30-30 bullets.

http://m.hornady.com/store/30-Cal-.308-140-gr-monoflex/
Hornady made a copper for the .30-30 (when you confirmed the .308 diameter I thought of these 2 alternatives as well) and a light hollowpoint.
http://m.hornady.com/store/30-Cal-.308-125-gr.-HP/
And we shouldn't leave out Sierras contribution to the .30-30
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/2020/308-dia-30-30-125-gr-HP-FN
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/2135/308-dia-150-gr-RN

 

[Newtosavage]

http://m.hornady.com/store/30-Cal-.308-140-gr-monoflex/
Hornady made a copper for the .30-30 (when you confirmed the .308 diameter I thought of these 2 alternatives as well) and a light hollowpoint.
http://m.hornady.com/store/30-Cal-.308-125-gr.-HP/
And we shouldn't leave out Sierras contribution to the .30-30
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/2020/308-dia-30-30-125-gr-HP-FN
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/2135/308-dia-150-gr-RN

You're a genius. I completely forgot about the 140 all copper monoflex. Gonna try those next and see if they group as well as the 160's. Sound like a great compromise between weight and speed.

 

[mshootnit]

Looks to me like it worked good. Using a bolt action you can (seems you already have) work up loads that outperform factory data meant for semi autos. (40,000 CUP)
Would be cool if there was a superformance 140gr. load meant for bolt 7.62x39. Maybe hitting 2350fps or so.

 

[LoonWulf]

Actually playing with quickloads suggest 2300-2350 should be pretty doable with the 140monoflex, from an 18" tube.

 

[Browning]

I can understand why, but if you get a chance, try these 160 FTX's I'm telling you, they are tack drivers out of my 7.62x39, otherwise I would have moved on to another bullet.

I'll definitely check them out. Kinda curious about the accuracy.

Anything that increases accuracy out of an AK is a good thing (those are my only x39's). My 30 rd groups out of both of those are about fist sized if I'm prone or on a bench @ 100y. So not ever going to get clover leafs out of them like with a couple of my AR's or my Ruger No. 1 in .270 Win, but not horrible either.

2nd but the first was a head shot on a doe at about 100. She was DRT I found this example interesting because I was able to recover the bullet. That doesn't happen very often.

I'd keep going with this load then simply based on the accuracy you're getting.

I know that you were saying that you were somewhat concerned about the bullet not opening up on a broadside shot, but a single shot doesn't give you much basis for comparison and the bullet was in fact accurate and did in fact open up. Bullets do weird things sometimes. This one may have taken the entire length of the animal before it opened up and the next one may open up in a much shorter distance and blast a a cannon sized hole on its way out. I'd get a few shoots out of it before I tried to draw any conclusions.

-
Thanks for the info on the Winchester SP. If I ever see it hanging out on the shelf I'll grab some.

I'm intrigued by the Barnes mention now. Will try.

Yeah, they're pretty awesome. TSX is pretty much my go-to bullet followed by the Hornady T2.

Never tried TSX out of either of my AK's. It's all been either .223 Rem or 6.8 SPC. Don't see why it would be any different out of a 7.62x39 though.

 

[salt&battery]

You're a genius. I completely forgot about the 140 all copper monoflex. Gonna try those next and see if they group as well as the 160's. Sound like a great compromise between weight and speed.

between those copper flex bullets and lapua brass you have pretty expensive missiles lol

 

[Newtosavage]

Would be cool if there was a superformance 140gr. load meant for bolt 7.62x39. Maybe hitting 2350fps or so.

Actually playing with quickloads suggest 2300-2350 should be pretty doable with the 140monoflex, from an 18" tube.

That's what I was thinking. I will get some of those 140 Monoflex bullets and see what I get, but I doubt 2300 will be difficult since I'm already getting 2225 with the 160's out of my rifle, and I chrono'd the factory 123-grain Hornady SST's and Winchester soft point 123's at 2350.

between those copper flex bullets and lapua brass you have pretty expensive missiles lol

Yea, I suppose so. I saw the Lapua brass as a "one and done" thing though. Doubt I'll ever have to buy any more brass for this rifle.

The nice thing about this caliber is that if I'm just going blasting or if I have a new shooter who needs some trigger time, any cheap steel case ammo will do just fine, and it's still accurate enough that the shooter can gain some confidence. My new shooter in this case was shooting the Hornady SST steel case rounds into 2" groups at 50 yards for hours, and they really felt like they could get the job done once we left the range. That confidence is priceless, but doesn't cost much to earn. Then we load the "good stuff" and go hunt.

 

[salt&battery]

That's what I was thinking. I will get some of those 140 Monoflex bullets and see what I get, but I doubt 2300 will be difficult since I'm already getting 2225 with the 160's out of my rifle, and I chrono'd the factory 123-grain Hornady SST's and Winchester soft point 123's at 2350.



Yea, I suppose so. I saw the Lapua brass as a "one and done" thing though. Doubt I'll ever have to buy any more brass for this rifle.

The nice thing about this caliber is that if I'm just going blasting or if I have a new shooter who needs some trigger time, any cheap steel case ammo will do just fine, and it's still accurate enough that the shooter can gain some confidence. My new shooter in this case was shooting the Hornady SST steel case rounds into 2" groups at 50 yards for hours, and they really felt like they could get the job done once we left the range. That confidence is priceless, but doesn't cost much to earn. Then we load the "good stuff" and go hunt.

yes you can always go to the steel cased ammo and have fun. do you know if savage still makes your rifle? I always hear of the CZ model not your rifle

 

[Newtosavage]

I think they stopped making all the model 10 Scout rifles. They also made it in .308. Basically it's a regular model 10/11 but with an extra hole drilled and tapped in the barrel a few inches ahead of the receiver, to accept a steel weaver base forward of the action. I had mine in the "scout" configuration for a while until my brother talked me out of my Weaver 4x scout scope (he liked it more than I did, although it was a superb little scope, the field of view was too narrow IMO for actual hunting scenarios, as tested on about a dozen pigs last spring). So I had my model 11 in .308 drilled and tapped for that mount, mounted the scout scope on that rifle, then gave it to him for his 50th birthday. He was stoked. That model 11 with my handloads would do 2" at 300 yards all day long, even with that 4x scout scope. But he's a really good shot.

I found mine on the Cabelas Gun Library, and they occasionally get them in. Mine was unfired, new old stock. After shooting mine, my friend just absolutely had to own one, so he found another one and had it shipped to our local Cabelas. So now we have matching model 10's in 7.62x39. Loads of fun at the range.

 

[Newtosavage]

BTW, if not for a snafu at a gun store a year ago, I would have owned the little CZ instead. Now I'm kinda happy that happened, but I may still buy a CZ anyway. They are sweet little rifles and I hear their accuracy is as good as what I'm seeing from my Savage.

Oh, and Ruger also made a bolt action 77 Hawkeye in this caliber, but they are very hard to find.

 

[salt&battery]

BTW, if not for a snafu at a gun store a year ago, I would have owned the little CZ instead. Now I'm kinda happy that happened, but I may still buy a CZ anyway. They are sweet little rifles and I hear their accuracy is as good as what I'm seeing from my Savage.

Oh, and Ruger also made a bolt action 77 Hawkeye in this caliber, but they are very hard to find.

I have found a howa mini action in 39 with stirling scope for good price. I forgot they made them in a true mini action not jury rigged short or long action

 

[Newtosavage]

I have read about those min-mausers and heard good things about them. To me, the Savage was a no-brainer due to the known accuracy of those rifles and the adjustable trigger. The old scout rifles came with their "target" triggers, adjustable down to about 1.5# I have all my hunting rifles set at 3# though. Can't recall what kind of trigger that CZ had, but I don't remember it being a bad one.

 

[adcoch1]

The cz is a set trigger, nice clean break when not set, and mouse click easy when set. Wish I had a Savage also though. I may get a howa for my next x39 gun...

 

[Newtosavage]

Ah, that's right. I thought I remembered it being a good trigger, although personally I would prefer the Savage adjustable trigger with the "safety" transfer blade vs. a set trigger, for hunting of course. But to each their own.

 

[1stmarine]

I think the load is pretty good but you might want to consider something a bit more stout for those kind of shots.

What I mean is the SST line is a very good bullet but sometimes it separates and fragments making it a bit more unpredictable.
The same thing happens wiht the 125gr bullets including the nosler ballistic tip that are pretty much the same construction
so by going lighter with this type of bullets we are not helping with the purpose.
I think they 160gr are more than perfect for the lungs / heart shots because of the massive and broad wounding with plenty of penetration
but with more challenging shoot and the potential of bone (or hogs on the move) a more stout bullet would help.
the ballistic tip is going to behave very similarly so I think in terms of selection a bonded bullet or Barnes solid would give more consistency
no matter how much bone gets in the middle.
I also think with these one can trade off a bit of grain and sectional density in exchange for speed at impact.
depending on your chamber and freebore a 130gr TTSX should be able to produce 2400-2500fps with fast powders.
Lapua brass and hard primers will easily handle CIP+ pressures w/o any signs of over-pressure on brass or primers.
These bullets with striking speeds above 2000 fps and even a tad lower are very consistent and produce consistent wounding.
Plus within 150 yards will also induce substantial hidrostatic shock whereas the smaller 110gr solids fall too short.
IMO light for caliber bullets like the 110gr-125gr 30 calibers are best for what originally intended that is varmint loads for cartridges
like the 308 winchester a 3000fps and above. Barnes also makes a 123gr TSX for the AK that you can safely pump to 2500fps
so maybe you want to try this one first. Same idea, stout bullet at fast striking speeds. Less SD is ok in this case.
Another one to try is the Speer 150gr SPBT or 303 caliber 150gr hot-cor that should give you at least 2,300fps with
reloader 7 or AA1680. These are also soft but seem to hold a bit better than the hornady and nosler although I would keep the
same in mind. Well priced too.
The fact that didn't pass trough is not a huge deal. The main thing is that it is consistent in wounding and penetration w/o fragmentation
and delfection.
The TSX will will be also a good done for the hogs to go through shoulders. Those do not fall easy to small calibers sometimes.

thanks for sharing your experience. I have settled for the 35cal 200grFTX for the AR15 and should be enough for most game with
the extra grain but also have prepared a 180TSX and 200gr accubond in case one day I go for tough to kill animals with large bones.


Also you might find this interesting...

http://rifleshooter.com/2016/01/7-62x39-mm-russian-effects-of-barrel-length-on-velocity/

 

[Newtosavage]

I think the load is pretty good but you might want to consider something a bit more stout for those kind of shots.

Or just not take those kinds of shots. To be fair, I was a split-second from tapping this young shooter on the shoulder and telling them to wait. The deer turned away and although the shooter knew it was still okay to take a quartering shot, they panicked a bit and rushed the shot, hitting a bit further back than they intended. I admit it was not an ideal shot angle, and not one I would have taken myself.

Trouble is that with more horsepower, the shooter might not have been willing to practice as much as they had, which could have led to slapping the trigger, flinching, etc. So, I have found this caliber to be a real nice combination of low felt recoil, reasonable muzzle blast and good downrange energy for deer-sized game at reasonable distances.

Thanks for all the advice though. Greatly appreciated. I enjoy learning about this stuff as I have a lot to learn about bullet construction and selection now that I'm handloading.

 

[1stmarine]

Here another interesting read courtesy of Zak Smith..

http://demigodllc.com/articles/7.62x39-improving-the-military-standard/?p=1

I would probably pick speed over grain and keep it withing 150 yards for good activation upon impact.

fyi...

 

[horsey300]

Omg YES!....Tho i doubt it will be as exciting as im hoping.

Or just not take those kinds of shots. To be fair, I was a split-second from tapping this young shooter on the shoulder and telling them to wait. The deer turned away and although the shooter knew it was still okay to take a quartering shot, they panicked a bit and rushed the shot, hitting a bit further back than they intended. I admit it was not an ideal shot angle, and not one I would have taken myself.

Trouble is that with more horsepower, the shooter might not have been willing to practice as much as they had, which could have led to slapping the trigger, flinching, etc. So, I have found this caliber to be a real nice combination of low felt recoil, reasonable muzzle blast and good downrange energy for deer-sized game at reasonable distances.

Thanks for all the advice though. Greatly appreciated. I enjoy learning about this stuff as I have a lot to learn about bullet construction and selection now that I'm handloading.

So I've been waiting for the perfect day for that 500 yds on a frozen pumpkin, today the temp was 7 Fahrenheit and only a 3mph breeze......so I setup and have the results. My prohunters are 100 gr .243 mv of 2934 20" bbl and at 500 yds are close to 1834. S.d. =.246 so it is a bit different than your 125 but you have more frontal mass and I think more energy as I'm down to 746 out there. It was too chilly to walk the distance just for targets practicing so I drove .3 of a mile and then setup just a tiny bit closer. Before anyone jumps me about how a frozen pumpkin is not a deer, I know this, but it has worked for me as a decent INDICATOR of what I can hope for. The pumpkin was about 7" diameter 5.5" tall. After taking a couple of shots to make sure of wind drift, I dialed in and put 3 through it as best I could. The coffee was my enemy this morning as usual but the nicotine helped level it just enough. I expected full penetration and set up cottonwood pieces behind hoping to catch one to weigh but it was not meant to be. The one bullet that struck the firewood carried through and scattered slivers and chunks almost 8 yds behind. I apologize if the pictures aren't that great it's just my camera phone. It may be hard to see the entrance on one but it's close to my thumb. It was hard to see the screen with tinted glasses and glare so I hope these are OK, as the bullet hit the second wall, it expanded to enough size to fit my ring finger tip easily. Bottom line, deer at 1800 fps with a prohunter? Yes.