Bullet weight, which is best

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Hunter2011

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I know a lot of threads exists about it, and I have read a lot of them.
I just want to know why it is said that a 115gr JHP 9mm does not have enough penetration? I simply cannot believe this statement. Are there any real proof out there?
380 auto's shooting much lighter (90gr) bullets have been known to give more than good enough penetration in a lot of actual SD shootings. So that is why I can't start to imagine the 115gr bullets being too light at 27% more weight and a bit more speed.
Then it is said the 124gr bullets are more than adequate. How can this little difference in bullet weight ( this is the weight of a .177 airgun pellet! ) make such a big difference?

Then also, how deep is a heart situated in a body? 2'', 3''? I simply can't believe that a 115gr bullet at 1100 fps+ cannot reach it... How possible is this?

My reasoning is based on this.
I've got a PCP airgun. It shoots a .20 13.7gr pellet at just 850fps. But that is enough to travel through a rock pigeon at any angle, whether I hit bones or not. Quite a bit of inches of real meat etc. This same airgun however merely dents a big oil drum. My 380 auto, sold now, could penetrate both sides, and still went in so deep into a tree that I could not get it out without having to damage the tree. So how can penetration be the issue?

Please educate me. I might be missing something. Please don't fight with me, I just want to know the real facts:)
 
Honestly, most handguns will be inadequate to stop an attacker with one shot, regardless of caliber. This is borne out in police shootings, in particular the experiences of Jim Cirillio. The one-shot-stop is rare in reality.

Therefore IMHO, you should pick a caliber and subsequent round that you feel comfortable shooting and have good reliability in your gun. Plan for multiple shots.

Personally, I choose 9mm, ASYM Precision 115gr +P with the Barnes solid copper bullet, which has good expansion after penetrating a variety of mediums. Others like the 124, 135, and 147 offerings. Again, personally, I'm not fretting over 30 grains difference when all the bullets expand well nowadays.

Just MHO.
 
Hard to know where to start, so I won't. The OP's lack of knowledge of bird vs. mammal physiology, for example, is flabbergasting. ;)
 
Bullet weight (mass) in relationship to diameter is a factor in penetration potential. Sectional density (SD) is the mathematical way this is calculated. SD actually was used in artillery to anticipate how well a given shell would work against different mediums. The basic idea is the greater the mass hitting a given area, the more it will penetrate. Think of getting your foot stepped on by your wife twice, once wearing flats and once wearing spike heels; the spikes puts the same mass in a much smaller area and hurts more because of the greater pressure. This same principle is used in ballistics. Some folks like the heavy bullets to take advantage of this even though the round will often have less kinetic energy as energy rises on the square of velocity. This is why you see debates between the energy supporters and the SD endorsers; less filling or tastes great........... :) YMMV
 
Hard to know where to start, so I won't. The OP's lack of knowledge of bird vs. mammal physiology, for example, is flabbergasting. ;)
I don't have to be an expert on the field. I also don't have to be an er doctor to understand what happens after being shot. Yes steel, birds and humans are three very different things.
But I stand by my point. I simply can't see how a 115gr JHP does not have enough penetration to reach a heart. That while a 124gr bullet can. That is why I asked for facts, any proof, to say a 115gr bullet cannot penetrate good enough to reach a heart. I simply do not believe it.
 
Try out your google foo and do some surfing on youtube for ballistics gel testing, then decide for yourself. FWIW, the amount of penetration required to shoot someone in the heart depends on the angle of the impact. Hitting someone in the arm first, or at an angle, say on the right side, is different than from the front.
 
Traditionally heavier for caliber bullets have always penetrated better. With modern bullets the type of construction has changed a lot of the rules and lots of folks just haven't figured out that the rules have changed.

Your example of the metal can and bird just aren't relevant.

I prefer to use 124 gr HP ammo loaded to about 1200 fps in my 9mm's, but with good bullets satisfactory results can be had with most any of the common bullet weights from 115-147. The bullets construction and placement are more important. Sometimes we all overthink these things.
 
Traditionally heavier for caliber bullets have always penetrated better. With modern bullets the type of construction has changed a lot of the rules and lots of folks just haven't figured out that the rules have changed.

Your example of the metal can and bird just aren't relevant.

I prefer to use 124 gr HP ammo loaded to about 1200 fps in my 9mm's, but with good bullets satisfactory results can be had with most any of the common bullet weights from 115-147. The bullets construction and placement are more important. Sometimes we all overthink these things.
I agree 100%. Even about my statement about steel lol.

I know a heavier slower bullet will always penetrate more than a lighter faster bullet. I don't deny that at all. I just think that even though a lighter bullet has less penetration, that does not mean it is useless. It will still get the job done. After a bullet has gone through the heart, does the extra penetration a heavier bullet gives really make any difference?
 
All handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary.
We want expansion but we *need* sufficient penetration.

The majority of expanding 115gr 9mm's may not achieve sufficient penetration to reach the vitals through intervening obstacles like heavy coats, outstretched arms, ribs, etc (remember Platt and the infamous Miami Shootout where a 115gr Silvertip expanded perfectly but stopped 1" short of his heart after passing through Platt's forearm?).

You can't get something for nothing so any bullet has to trade penetration for expansion (Physics 101). With heavier bullets there's less tradeoff so deeper penetration w/greater expansion is more likely than with a lighter bullet.

Personally, I prefer Hornady's 135gr Critical Duty (std pressure for faster followup shots) for its assured penetration to the middle of the FBI's suggested 12"-18" of ballistic gel penetration instead of the beginning of it (YMMV). The price for this penetration is less expansion.
However, the 147gr HST is also at the top of my carry list, combining both sufficient penetration and excellent expansion.
HTH...
Tomac
 
I agree 100%. Even about my statement about steel lol.

I know a heavier slower bullet will always penetrate more than a lighter faster bullet. I don't deny that at all. I just think that even though a lighter bullet has less penetration, that does not mean it is useless. It will still get the job done. After a bullet has gone through the heart, does the extra penetration a heavier bullet gives really make any difference?

And that statement of your is true.

People sometimes argue to the Nth degree.

Sometime they will say things like " it doesn't have the penetration to reliably neutralize the threat" and in doing so imply that it simply a matter of a better bullet choice (theirs of course)


But the fact us, handguns in general don't "have the penetration to reliably neutralize the threat" regardless of bullet choice (practically speaking).


Its all about risk management. Pick and choose what you feel is acceptable for you.

Some people wont drive faster than 55 with 12 airbags. Others feel driving 95 without a seat belt is low enough risk for them.
 
'Best is relative'..

9mm Luger has plenty of penetration for a self defense handgun round. Both 9mm and .45 ACP penetrate approximately 24-28 inches in ballistic gel. The human torso is anywhere from 7 to 12 inches deep, front to back, with the average being 10 inches. The most important thing, is to choose a gun/cartridge that you can shoot comfortably and to practice as much as possible. In a defensive situation, shot placement is #1 and penetration is a close second. JHP rounds are even better as long as they penetrate and expand properly. When I bought my first new gun, my choice was limited by cost - either the Cobra FS380 or Hi-Point C9. I chose the C9 because I like the 9mm Luger and it does penetrate more than the .380 ACP. Just my two cents worth..happy shooting! :D
 
That is why I asked for facts, any proof, to say a 115gr bullet cannot penetrate good enough to reach a heart. I simply do not believe it.
The question is not whether it can but rather whether it can with all of those bones in the way on a regular basis. Also whether a Heavier round can do so with I higher percentage of success. Finally (as you mentioned ) whether or not the .9 Gr difference is substantial enough to be measurable with a degree of certainty when related to lethality.

Several coroner reports have been made about bullets being deflected by bone and hit less than lethal parts of the human anatomy. Brassfetcher did a good write-up on the human skeleton. http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm Luger/9x19mm Luger Bone Test.pdf Good read and some interesting views of the skeleton and it's coverage of the vitals. What this tells us is even a good shot may not be good enough and accuracy may be less effective than one may think supporting the multiple shot stop theory.

Just the natural shape of the skeleton is designed to protect vitals and still be able to allow free movement. IMO it does it very effectively. There are factors in overcoming this natural defense but still a debate as among the most common handgun calibers as to which does it best or whether one gives a better percentage of success without sacrificing recoil or capacity.

There is one factor that affects the ability of a given caliber to penetrate well that is Kinetic Energy or KE.
Kinetic_1.jpg

and the less mentioned Potential Energy or PE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_energy.
u5l1b6.gif
Though PE is used or referred to more in the use of a bow and arrow for example, it still applies to guns due to the stored energy being measurable and trajectories relationship to bullet ballistics within the equation.

The higher the energy the higher the energy transfer into an object and the greater the chance at good penetration and overcoming barriers such as bone, but again no guarantee.

KE is based on a measurement of Mass and velocity. The higher the velocity the higher the KE and the heavier the Mass the higher the resistance to an objects affect on reducing its kinetic energy thereby increasing penetration. Within a given round there are limits and balances must be made to effectively bring these to things together to get the best result. If neither were limited it would be easier to increase velocity to improve the chances of penetration through barriers both natural and unnatural though he recoil would increase as well. However they are limited by design.

But what has been found through science and testing over time is that mass makes up for a limited velocity and does so very well. Mass can penetrate more or fly further as the resistance to energy loss increased substantially by weight alone extending the ability of the cartridge to pack a more damaging punch and plow through those barriers with a higher degree of success.

Then it is said the 124gr bullets are more than adequate. How can this little difference in bullet weight ( this is the weight of a .177 airgun pellet! ) make such a big difference?
Some of what I covered can help to understand the increase in penetration. Doesn't mean the 124gr is the above and beyond better weight for a 9mm but it is better at penetrating. To what degree of efficiency is another question that is hard to answer. There is not really a proven percentage of lethality that says the 9gr increase in weight will effectively increase it's ability to overcome barriers and KE loss enough to make a substantial difference.

There are some tools that may help to give you a better idea of the differences but the best way to get some easy visuals it is through some of the ballistic test. Videos and charts are all over the web including www.brassfetcher.com and YouTube.

Here's a good source on Mass effect on KE: http://www.rsd17.org/TeacherWebPage/HighSchool/HFerrer/CH15MassVsKELabANSWERS.pdf


All of that and the discussion of HP ammo and how it effects the outcome. Penetration differences due to expansion, lack of expansion due to clogging, energy loss from barriers, KE depletion due to lack of weight, Over-penetration due to clogging (essentially becoming a ballistic equal to a FMJ).

In the end there are variables and more variables that cloud the small weight difference between the 115 and 124 in a 9mm. Spread it out a little more and there is more data with more discernible results. This Ballistics Gelatin test is interesting enough to mention:http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

As weight, caliber and velocity change you can see the differences on the Ballistic Gelatin. However how does that relate to a real world and does it reflect the human body? Not as much as one would think. Center mass shots are located in the most protected part of the human body. There it is mostly bone where the penetration, expansion, trajectory and overall damage will most likely be drastically different than Ballistics Gelatin. The Exception that makes up the difference between most likely and most definitely would be if you squeezed a shot between the ribs.

In essence most JHP fail to expand through bone. Given that the Majority of the "center mass" is covered by bone penetration and caliber become your best friend.

Disregarding a failure to expand because your choice in JHP or even EFMJ is better and supposing they still expand the surface area of the round increases substantially. When that happens the larger area and heavier drag will deplete KE rapidly and dump it quickly into the body. With a lighter round the KE will deplete more quickly and penetration will be affected. How much depends again on more variables such as weight, velocity, and how quickly or slowly the round expands.

Even with all the information I have here there is room for critique. I am sure that something can be debated, calibrated or corrected. The weight debate is not much different than the caliber debate. Don't let it consume you as it has some. ;) :banghead:
 
I myself prefer the lighter bullet, for the simple reason the lighter bullet will expend it's energy inside the human torso and not have to worry about the round possibly exiting the perpetrator and hitting an innocent bystander. Always thinking civil liability.

Now hunting, I will use the heaviest bullet available in order to create a wound channel in order to blood track the wounded animal if need be.
 
People will always differ and that makes life interesting and not boring. For example some prefer big engines over smaller turbo engines, despite the fact that the smaller engine can be faster.
I myself rather choose light and fast over slow and heavy. If you want to impress your son and want to shoot through as much wood as possible, then I myself will use the heaviest FMJ round available. In handgun velocities there might not be a big shock wave, but it still is there. It is much less with subsonic heavy ammo. Just look how much more effective a 55gr .223 bullet is compared to a heavy 230gr 45ACP. That is why I don't have a problem with light bullets and speed. If that small 22 caliber bullet can do that, then a 115gr bullet is no lightweight. I know its not apples to apples, but its just an example of my reasoning.
As long as penetration is good enough, I will always choose speed over weight.
 
Hunter2011 wrote,
I just want to know why it is said that a 115gr JHP 9mm does not have enough penetration? I simply cannot believe this statement. Are there any real proof out there?
The reason we currently have the .40S&W is because during the Miami shootout, back in the 1980's, the 9mm Winchester Silvertip in 115gr weight took the blame for under penetration. The FBI determined they needed a round that would penetrate deeper, hence the initial move to 10mm and then to the .40S&W.
loose noose wrote,
I myself prefer the lighter bullet, for the simple reason the lighter bullet will expend it's energy inside the human torso and not have to worry about the round possibly exiting the perpetrator and hitting an innocent bystander.
In the 1970's and early 1980's the theory of "energy dump" was very popular. We had very light weight for caliber rounds, even 90gr 9mm (SuperVel) were quite popular. After the above mentioned incident and subsequent bullet research, most makers moved to (actually went back to original weights) heavier for caliber ammo. In addition, bullet design was changed to provide controlled expansion, rather than the rapid expansion rounds of the "energy dump" era. The Winchester Silvertip of the day, actually did exactly what it was designed to do, it expanded rapidly and penetrated shallowly.

There is very little, if any, research showing over penetrating handgun rounds are responsible for injuring bystanders.

In the big picture all the rounds are fairly similar. Shoot what you like, it's your gun, and your call.
 
People will always differ and that makes life interesting and not boring. For example some prefer big engines over smaller turbo engines, despite the fact that the smaller engine can be faster.
I myself rather choose light and fast over slow and heavy. If you want to impress your son and want to shoot through as much wood as possible, then I myself will use the heaviest FMJ round available. In handgun velocities there might not be a big shock wave, but it still is there. It is much less with subsonic heavy ammo. Just look how much more effective a 55gr .223 bullet is compared to a heavy 230gr 45ACP. That is why I don't have a problem with light bullets and speed. If that small 22 caliber bullet can do that, then a 115gr bullet is no lightweight. I know its not apples to apples, but its just an example of my reasoning.
As long as penetration is good enough, I will always choose speed over weight.
Bullet weight only matters if it affects penetration. There are also other factors such as trajectory and wind deflection etc. In most cases, for most people it's only an academic subject.
 
It is much less with subsonic heavy ammo. Just look how much more effective a 55gr .223 bullet is compared to a heavy 230gr 45ACP.
There is a substantial KE difference between rifle calibers and pistol calibers with the exception of a few like the .22LR. The Velocity can be two to three (or more) times the difference and that huge leap in velocity equates to a much higher KE.

I don't doubt your reasoning with the 115 vs. 124 being more than a miniscule measurement. However based on the aforementioned reasons it would be unfair to use the .223 as an example compared to a 9mm.

As an example of weight and comparison the .223 will not defeat two car windows or with enough energy to remain lethal. However the 308 Winchester will with a 150 gr Bullet going 600 FPS slower.
 
The Germans introduced the 9x19 back in 1908 firing a sintered iron 124 grain truncated cone style bullet at 1200 fps from a P-08 Luger.
They got it right....then America came along.

Returning GI's with captured P-08 Lugers created a domestic market but the ammo created to fill it was anemic an incapable of actuating the Luger's toggle-lock action.

Over the decades the 115gr bullet has become the "standard" of the domestic manufacturers...except for this latest foray into 147 grain thanks to the delusion perpetrated by the FBI.

In my "line of work" I've seen 115 grain hollowpoints shoot clean through a large adult male...clean through, taking out little tissue plugs on exit. Clearly the round has adequate penetration on "frontal" shots.

What the FBI concluded was that they needed a round that would penetrate more deeply "in case" the shot was oblique...say 45 degree where the bullet might strike an arm and then on into the chest...as happened in the Miami shootout...which has led to the nonsense that if a bullet doesn't penetrate 12-18" it's not worth having...pure bunk of course.

In a NORMAL defensive situation where your attacker is facing you, 6-8" of penetration is plenty, and the various pre-fragmented type loads on the market "understand" this reality.

The problem with penetration isn't bullet weight...a 115 grain 9mm will shoot clean through a human, it's transferring all that kinetic energy!

What the Germans "got right" was settling on a truncated cone style solid bullet that transferred more energy into the recipient than any round nose could...but modern day ammo makers are trying to sell you something so they keep pushing all sorts of expanding bullet designs that MAY penetrate as deep as you need, but may not...and the same is TRUE of the .45 ACP.

On the other hand, a FMJ TCFJ 9mm will almost always penetrate fully...creating TWO holes including a larger exit that aids bleed-out. IF the bullet strikes the CNS the person is down.

Also bear in mind that ALL "domestic" 9mm ammo is downloaded.
 
In modern current quality hollowpoint ammunition from the big makers, there's not much difference between 124 and 115 gr ammo. The advantage of ammo in this weight range is you can buy a COMPERABLE FMJ ammo for training.

115 gr silvertips (the old FBI load) is still pretty good, though its design is now considered 'not as good' in penetration to more modern designs.
 
Thank you for making me not look so stupid anymore. The fact that Kilibreuks did see complete penetration in huge men, is good enough ain't it?
 
The advantage of ammo in this weight range is you can buy a COMPERABLE FMJ ammo for training.

So true. Both my range ammo, FMJ and my carry ammo, JHP are 115gr. I'm thinking of making my carry ammo my range ammo as well. Magtech JHP are just a bit more expensive than S&B FMJ. But they are more accurate.
 
My question to kilibreaux is this: Did those "115 grain hollowpoints shoot clean through a large adult male...clean through" expand at all or did they fail to expand and thus act like FMJ? Did they have to penetrate any intervening obstacles? Thx...
Tomac
 
The reason we currently have the .40S&W is because during the Miami shootout, back in the 1980's, the 9mm Winchester Silvertip in 115gr weight took the blame for under penetration. The FBI determined they needed a round that would penetrate deeper, hence the initial move to 10mm and then to the .40S&W.

In the 1970's and early 1980's the theory of "energy dump" was very popular. We had very light weight for caliber rounds, even 90gr 9mm (SuperVel) were quite popular. After the above mentioned incident and subsequent bullet research, most makers moved to (actually went back to original weights) heavier for caliber ammo. In addition, bullet design was changed to provide controlled expansion, rather than the rapid expansion rounds of the "energy dump" era. The Winchester Silvertip of the day, actually did exactly what it was designed to do, it expanded rapidly and penetrated shallowly.

There is very little, if any, research showing over penetrating handgun rounds are responsible for injuring bystanders.

In the big picture all the rounds are fairly similar. Shoot what you like, it's your gun, and your call.

This is the primary reason. During this shootout one of the perps was struck with a 115gr Winchester silver tip. The round expanded as designed, did a lot of damage but stopped just short of hitting Platt's heart. This allowed him to fight on and kill two agents wounding several others. The FBI came to the conclusion that had the bullet penetrated a couple of more inches Platt would have taken a direct hit to the heart and probably stopped before he could have inflicted the damage that he did.

Although there is always a lot of talk about energy and energy transfer there is very little if any real scientific evidence that energy transfer has anything to do with terminal performance in a handgun round. Handguns just do not generate enough energy for it to be a factor, rifles are a different story and you can't compare the two.

Over penetration in my opinion is a non factor made up by those selling books and magazines. When most of the rounds fired in a high stress situation miss the intended target in the first place why are we worried about one going through the intended target and hitting a bystander? Almost any round is capable of going straight through the intended target under the right circumstances such as a failure to expand.
 
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