Bullet weight, which is best

[wally]

Bullet placement, placement, and penetration are the three most important factors in handgun effectiveness.

Use whatever you shoot the best assuming it has adequate penetration (12" in calibrated gel)

Over penetration in my opinion is a non factor made up by those selling books and magazines. When most of the rounds fired in a high stress situation miss the intended target in the first place why are we worried about one going through the intended target and hitting a bystander? Almost any round is capable of going straight through the intended target under the right circumstances such as a failure to expand.

Totally with you on this, while over penetration *could* be an issue for law enforcement with good guys (fellow officers, innocents) behind bad guys (although since they seem to miss at least as much as we do, its kind of moot ), as an armed citizen anyone behind my attacker is most likely an accomplice.

 

[spottedpony]

This may not be a "popular" opinion but I think there's too much emphesis placed on bullet weight/style. Now admittedly there are some conditions where "bullet X" may not perform because of unforseen conditions, heavy clothing for example. The fact is there is no "Perfect" bullet for all circumstances, thus the "best" bullet for the conditions discribed, is the one that gives the best accuracy in any given firearm. More accurately the complete round of ammo needs to be considered. That entails not only terminal performance but reliable feeding (in the case of semi autos) and firing under all conditions.
Statistics are fine, but do not always give a complete picture or convey actual experience. And while I'm not advocating going out and shooting someone, how many here have actually taken a life and done so under some sort of duress?
Without going into a lot of detail, and thinking back to the viet nam era, my personal last resort, last ditch effort, do everything i could to avoid capture and get away from the NVA, was a well used Colt Woodsman .22 pistol, shooting CCI minimags. Three times in "get him before he gets me", close quarters conflict, it saved me a lengthy stay in the Hanoi Hilton, or worse.
Nothing more can be asked of any weapon when it comes to a life threatening situation.

 

[gbeecher]

This may not be a "popular" opinion but I think there's too much emphesis placed on bullet weight/style. Now admittedly there are some conditions where "bullet X" may not perform because of unforseen conditions, heavy clothing for example. The fact is there is no "Perfect" bullet for all circumstances, thus the "best" bullet for the conditions discribed, is the one that gives the best accuracy in any given firearm. More accurately the complete round of ammo needs to be considered. That entails not only terminal performance but reliable feeding (in the case of semi autos) and firing under all conditions.
Statistics are fine, but do not always give a complete picture or convey actual experience. And while I'm not advocating going out and shooting someone, how many here have actually taken a life and done so under some sort of duress?
Without going into a lot of detail, and thinking back to the viet nam era, my personal last resort, last ditch effort, do everything i could to avoid capture and get away from the NVA, was a well used Colt Woodsman .22 pistol, shooting CCI minimags. Three times in "get him before he gets me", close quarters conflict, it saved me a lengthy stay in the Hanoi Hilton, or worse.
Nothing more can be asked of any weapon when it comes to a life threatening situation.

Good post - BTW, thank you for your service!

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I just want to know why it is said that a 115gr JHP 9mm does not have enough penetration?

115gr 9mm JHP, when it expands, usually does not penetrate at least 12 inches, which is the minimum penetration depth considered acceptable for general-purpose self-defense use. (There is one exception and that is the Barnes 115gr all copper JHP bullet.)

The bullet has to poke a hole in a vital organ to be effective. Sometimes it doesn't need 12" of penetration to do this. Sometimes it does. Placement and penetration are equally important.

9mm 115gr JHP also suffers inconsistent expansion performance, even +P+ variations such as Federal 9BPLE, because it is a short bullet and as a result the hollowpoint cavity isn't as deep, which allows it to become clogged with clothing.

The best performing bullets penetrate between 14-16 inches in both bare gelatin and gelatin covered by four layers of heavy denim cloth. The very best performers show very little difference in penetration depth between these two tests. In actual shootings most bullets recovered from a human body resembles a bullet shot into gelatin covered by four layers of denim.

More information about how the 12" minimum penetration depth was established can be found here: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

A list of 9mm bullets that penetrate a minimum of 12" can be found here: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo

 

[PistolPete45]

Personally My opinion Slow moving heavy is better then light and fast . Druggies are a big problem and that is why I like a 200 grain 44 special (900 FPS ). These criminals are jacked up do not know they have been shot until the blood loss causes them to fall down . Well my opinion >>your mileage may vary things in the mirror may be closer then they appear.

 

[gym]

I have been using the red tip Hornadays, and powerball. For the past few years, I also have a few mags loaded with the 2000 fps Liberty ammo 50 grain. It seems to make a real mess out of whatever it hits.

 

[mljdeckard]

Reb, I started a thread a while ago, and I got some crap for it, suggesting that there is no such thing as 'overpenetration', there is just penetration, and you want all you can get. Rule number four always applies, and it's not like you can PLAN on a bullet not completely traversing a human target, so why would you want one that will underperform? I think if a bullet stops in the target, that means it didn't finish its job. I want a hole in the front, and a bigger hole in the back. If I think a bullet is unlikely to do this, I wouldn't use it at all.

 

[IdahoHk416]

I like two 9mm loads in particular for my defensive 9mm's, the Corbon 115gr +P at 1350 fps, and the Federal 9bple 115gr +P+ at 1300fps. Both rounds have great real world track records being used in defensive shootings by both LEO and civilians.

 

[Lucky Derby]

This may not be a "popular" opinion but I think there's too much emphesis placed on bullet weight/style. Now admittedly there are some conditions where "bullet X" may not perform because of unforseen conditions, heavy clothing for example. The fact is there is no "Perfect" bullet for all circumstances, thus the "best" bullet for the conditions discribed, is the one that gives the best accuracy in any given firearm. More accurately the complete round of ammo needs to be considered. That entails not only terminal performance but reliable feeding (in the case of semi autos) and firing under all conditions.
Statistics are fine, but do not always give a complete picture or convey actual experience. And while I'm not advocating going out and shooting someone, how many here have actually taken a life and done so under some sort of duress?
Without going into a lot of detail, and thinking back to the viet nam era, my personal last resort, last ditch effort, do everything i could to avoid capture and get away from the NVA, was a well used Colt Woodsman .22 pistol, shooting CCI minimags. Three times in "get him before he gets me", close quarters conflict, it saved me a lengthy stay in the Hanoi Hilton, or worse.
Nothing more can be asked of any weapon when it comes to a life threatening situation.

Thank you, and God Bless.

 

[BlindJustice]

tnoutdoors9.com
20” Block of Sim-Test calibrated to Ballistic Gel
with 4 layers denim

9mm LUger / 9x19 / 9mm Parabellum

Ballistic Gel Tests conducted by tnoutdoors9.com

Speer 147 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Claimed Velocity: 985 FPS
Measured Velocity:: 972 FPS
Penetration: 14.25”
Expansion: 0.582”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSFQgP30Lao&index=5&list=PL727CAFF8A6C0D3BF

Speer +P 124 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Claimed Velocity: 1,220 FPS
Measured Velocity:: 1,204 FPS
Penetration: 13.25”
Expansion: 0.614”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdXfDcY-0gU&index=14&list=PL727CAFF8A6C0D3BF

Speer 115 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Claimed Velocity: 1,210 FPS
Measured Velocity:: 1,202 FPS
Penetration: 17.5”
Expansion: 0.517”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2s82NCLKQI&list=PL727CAFF8A6C0D3BF

Speer .380 ACP 90 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Claimed Velocity: 990 FPS
Measured Velocity:: 988 FPS
Penetration: 10.25”
Expansion: 0.517”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTTuXpFChsA


O.P. - Perhaps you can find other tests by same author
for other 115 gr. loads

I like heavy for caliber bullet weight.

R-

 

[BlindJustice]

The only 9x19 HD/SD ammo I have on
hand is Double Tap +P 147 gr. Gold Dot
JHP @ 1125 FPS

Practice load:
I prefer Fed. American Eagle 147 gr. FPTMJ @ 1,000 FPS
nice softer recoil load
but if it isn't available it's whatever 115 gr. FMJ I can find.

Point is moot I carry a 1911 .45 ACP
& favor the 230 gr. qual. JHPs for HD/SD

Though I have some of the
+P Barnes TAC XPD 185 gr +P @ 1,000 FPS
claimed 'no muzzle flash'

If I had a .40 S&W it'd be 180 gr. JHPs which run 1,000 FPS

.400 CorBon - limited to 165 gr. for this bottleneck newcomer
165 gr. Gold Dot JHP # 1300 FPS

My buddy with a Glock 20 has found
Underwoods Arms loading 200 gr. XTP @ 1,250 FPS
It's his woods load for summer hiking in the Idaho Rockies.

R-





5

 

[Hunter2011]

Speer 147 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Claimed Velocity: 985 FPS
Measured Velocity:: 972 FPS
Penetration: 14.25”
Expansion: 0.582”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdXfDcY-0gU&index=14&list=PL727CAFF8A6C0D3BF

Speer 115 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Claimed Velocity: 1,210 FPS
Measured Velocity:: 1,202 FPS
Penetration: 17.5”
Expansion: 0.517”

I like heavy for caliber bullet weight.

R-

Is this a typing error? Did the 115gr actually penetrated more than the 147 grainer?
Thanks for all the legwork. Its appreciated.

 

[SIGLBER]

It is really not so much bullet weight as bullet design. Different bullets perform diffferently at different velocities. We have some excellent bullet designs out their in all the different bullet weights. Each has an "expansion envelope". In other words a range of velocity at which it will both expand and penetrate deeply enough to reach it's design parameters.
Most are made to meet the F.B.I. criteria which means being able to penetrate various intervening objects and still expand and go 12+ inches deep. The theory is valid. It basically guarantees that no matter what angle the bullet is fired at through a human torso it will go deep enough to reach vitals. Their is quite a bit of difference in human beings make up so apart from deep penetration it's hard to say less penetration is trust worthy.
Quite a bit of difference between getting through a 6'4" muscle bound, bad guy. And a 105lb. crack addict. So lesser penetration may be fine in some instances. But having the assurance of sufficient penetration vs. insufficient is in most cases a good thing. But many manufacturers are making ammo catered to specific uses. Hornady for example is making it's Critical Defense 115gr. in 9mm ammo that is made to not penetrate quite as deeply as the ammo designed for duty use. Good for say home defense where you don't want to shoot through someone into the next room.
And on the other end Critical Duty which has a heavier 135gr. 9mm bullet that is made to penetrate barriers and still get good penetration and expansion. Which if you need to shoot through intervening objects is a good thing. All diferent manner and design are used to accomplish these things. You can probably find a good 115gr. 9mm bullet to meet your needs. The 115gr. +P+ bullets form the major manufacurers have good real world records. Or the old Federal 115gr. 9mm BP standard velocity round has a good record. The hot middle weights and the newer 147gr. rounds are good stoppers (as handgun rounds go). You've got a lot of choices. Rather 115gr. or 147gr. You can almost have it your way as far as penetration and expansion goes.