Bullets Are Too Long (measured to ogive)

[D.B. Cooper]

Will the rounds as is go in the chamber if single loaded and not fed out of the mag?
I've had that issue with my Tikka 243 loading bullets that area seated in such a manner that they would not load in a mag but I could single feed just fine.

Yes, for the most part, they will. The 85 grain bullet will, even when loaded to be .050 off the lands. The 80 grain bullet, however, when loaded to be .050 off the lands will not. The bolt won't go all the way forward. (It almost makes it.)

 

[edwardware]

The 80 grn would be 2.805 COAL to be .050 off the lands. Too long to function in the gun. (bolt wouldn't even close.)

Hold up. If you seat a bullet to 0.050" jump to the lands, then the bolt will close on it. If the bolt will not close, then you're seating into the lands (negative jump). I think you have a measurement problem.

Lose the Hornady tool, make a case with light neck tension, seat long, and force the bolt closed. Upon extraction, you will have a cartridge set a 0.0" jump. Also, never measure seating length data from the tip (way too much variation); always measure from the ogive.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Hold up. If you seat a bullet to 0.050" jump to the lands, then the bolt will close on it. If the bolt will not close, then you're seating into the lands (negative jump). I think you have a measurement problem.

Lose the Hornady tool, make a case with light neck tension, seat long, and force the bolt closed. Upon extraction, you will have a cartridge set a 0.0" jump. Also, never measure seating length data from the tip (way too much variation); always measure from the ogive.

I agree. So I need to redo the 80 grn bullet. 85 grn bullet will load singly; it just won't feed from the magazine. The 80 grn bullet the bolt won't close, so you're right; I've done something way wrong, and I suspect it was in my seating of the bullet and measuring. And yes, I'm using a comparator to measure to the ogive.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Yeah, I get your point. My grandfather fed his family through the depression with a 30-30. SHooting at running deer at 50 yards.

Yes, that was my point.

(other than a miss = a injured animal)

Respectfully, if you are going to miss a 14" zone with your rifle and even factory ammo either the rifle/scope is broken or you're shooting too far for your ability.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Hold up.[...] I think you have a measurement problem.

Absolutely correct!

I finally got some time in the garage tonight, so I started the entire process all over again. I left my original notes in the house, so I wouldn't be tempted to refer back to them. It would appear that I measured incorrectly the first time around. My initial measurement was 3.341 from ogive to base. Tonight, I measured 3.286 for the same measurement. That allowed me to seat to a COAL of 2.686, or 76 thousandths less than what Barnes says should be the COAL with that bullet, so that gives me room to experiment.

I don't actually know how I measured it wrong, or what I did differently tonight. I obviously need to use the measuring tools more. I'm off work for the next two weeks, so now it's time to start loading and shooting.

 

[JimKirk]

You most certainly have a measurement problem ....

First since we have no photos as to what method you are using ....

If your COAL is 2.686" . .. that is from the base of the case to the tip of the bullet...

There is no way in Hades that from the base of the case to anywhere on the Ogive of the bullet . ..can be 3.341" .... the measurement would have to be less than the COAL... got to be unless you are measuring air ...

Are you using a caliper ...you must not be zeroing it out with the Ogive part of the tool attached?
Here is a photo of my method ... I close the caliper on the nut and zero the caliper ...then the measurement is the actual distance from the base of the cartridge to the point of contact on the Ogive.

I must find first the the length of a loaded cartridge that just touches the rifling (this diameter will be somewhere on the Ogive it will not be the same for every gun ... they all differ).... This distance should never change for this particular bullet in this gun.

Now take my photo(it was a staged photo not an accurate measurement) ...but let say that my distance from the base of the case to the rifling in this bullet load is 3.794" . ... By taking the number in my photo ... 3.744" . .... 3.794" - 3 .744 = .050" .... This means the bullet is . 050" off the rifling. ..

In my setup I am sure that the hole in the "nut" is not an exact match for the lands of my rifle ...but I can use it in a relative manner .... regardless the difference is 0.050" . .

I am sure this is as clear as mud ....I

 

[armarsh]

This is the method I prefer. I have never had much success using the OAL tool. Downside is you need to strip your bolt to do it which can be a pain or requires tools depending on which action you have.

This is the very successful long range gunsmith Alex Wheeler demonstrating finding the OAL with the extraction cam.

 

[Random 8]

I think you're obsessing a bit much on details that the internet and people who want to sell you lots of bullets for testing say are necessary for accurate ammo. Some people get off on doing all these tweaks, and for bench rest and some of the more rarified target sports they are necessary, I'm not one of them, I let my targets do the talking. The "ideal" jump is much like the "ideal" stock many rifle makers put on them for the general public. It's a good starting point, but all rifles are different. Some rifles/bullets/loads are very forgiving of freebore, some not so much. I shoot a lot of WWII and earlier military rifles, including competition snipers to 600 yards. In most of these, jump is off the chart, well beyond max magazine length, and 1 MOA loads are not uncommon with well-made handloads despite the heavy military triggers. I'd load the Barnes book COL, that's what was pressure tested for their loads, and see how they function and shoot. If results are satisfactory, just kill caribou with them and save your money and time for good whiskey.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

There is no way in Hades that from the base of the case to anywhere on the Ogive of the bullet . ..can be 3.341" .... the measurement would have to be less than the COAL... got to be unless you are measuring air ...

Are you using a caliper ...you must not be zeroing it out with the Ogive part of the tool attached?
Here is a photo of my method ... I close the caliper on the nut and zero the caliper ...then the measurement is the actual distance from the base of the cartridge to the point of contact on the Ogive.

I'm doing essentially the same thing you are going, except my bullet comparator is a cylinder with interchangeable inserts. (Hornady tool.)

I have artificially manufactured this confusion by referencing two different measurements that really aren't compatible. When I say "3.341 from ogive to base," that number must also include the dimension of the comparator. I attach the comparator to the calipers, close the calipers, and then zero the dial (mine is analog, which I prefer.) I suppose I could have been more precise by measuring the dimension of the comparator and then subtracting that from 3.341 to get the true ogive to base dimension less the tool.

Additionally, the COAL dimension of 2.686 goes with the newer ogive to base + comparator dimension of 3.286. So yes, I did have ameasurement proplem in that my original measurement was inaccurate, and that threw off everything else.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I must find first the the length of a loaded cartridge that just touches the rifling (this diameter will be somewhere on the Ogive it will not be the same for every gun ... they all differ).... This distance should never change for this particular bullet in this gun.

That distance will change, possibly only minutely, every time you change the projectile. A longer, heavier projectile will have an ogive that touches the lands differently than a shorter, lighter projectile. This may or may not impact accuracy.

 

[JimKirk]

That distance will change, possibly only minutely, every time you change the projectile. A longer, heavier projectile will have an ogive that touches the lands differently than a shorter, lighter projectile. This may or may not impact accuracy.

This distance should never change for this particular bullet in this gun.

.. Re-read the last part of that sentence .... " this particular bullet in this gun"

 

[D.B. Cooper]

.. Re-read the last part of that sentence .... " this particular bullet in this gun"

You got me.