Bullets Are Too Long (measured to ogive)

[D.B. Cooper]

I'm using a Hornady bullet comparator and overall length gauge to set up my seating die for .050 off the lands as per the Barnes manual. (I'm working with a 243 Win once fired and neck sized only Barnes case and the 85 grain TSX projectile.)

My base to ogive length using the comparator is 3.308. After having some problems, I measured it a second time, and it came out 3.309. That's with the ogive on the lands in the chamber. Subtract .050 and my seated base to ogive length with the comparator should be 3.258.

So I set up the die to seat to 3.258, which gives me a COAL of 2.782 (Base to nose of bullet.) The dummy cartridge won't load into my rifle. (Pre accu-trigger Savage Model 110 long action, flat back receiver). The dummy cartidge comes off the magazine but the nose hits the wall of the chamber and stops the bolt from closing. Snap cap loads fine. Factory ammo of numerous varieties loads fine.

The 49th edition of Lyman's specifies a generic COAL for 243 Win at 2.710 (I'm .072 too long). Barnes load data on their website specifies a COAL of 2.645 (I'm 0.137 too long). I suspect that's enough to foul up the works.

What should I do here? An all copper 85 grain bullet is going to be longer (apparently much longer) than an 85 grn cup and core bullet. Do I seat the projectile to 2.645 as per Barnes' manual? That will put the projectile 0.187 off the lands. That's three times farther away than Barnes says is optimum for their bullets, what I've read on the web is that .050 off really is the sweet spot.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

So I just double checked and verified a few things. The cartridge is definitely hitting the face of the breech right at about the 8:30 to 9 o clock position (as you look into the breech from the rear of the rifle). The base of the cartridge is still partially in the magazine. I double checked all my measurements.

Just for comparison, I measured some factory ammo. Barnes factory 80 grn TTSX has a COAL of 2.622 (3.154 to the ogive). Federal Vital Shock with the Barnes 85 grn TSX projectile has a COAL of 2.617 (3.179 to the ogive) and basic, gray box Winchester 100 grn powerpoint lead measures 2.630 COAL (I didn't even bother with the ogive on that one.)

 

[higgite]

What should I do here? An all copper 85 grain bullet is going to be longer (apparently much longer) than an 85 grn cup and core bullet. Do I seat the projectile to 2.645 as per Barnes' manual? That will put the projectile 0.187 off the lands. That's three times farther away than Barnes says is optimum for their bullets, what I've read on the web is that .050 off really is the sweet spot.

Will assume (I know, I know) that you’re loading hunting ammo since the TSX is a hunting bullet. Have you tested your 3.258 COL vs Lymans’ or Barnes’ recommended COL to see if it makes an accuracy difference in your rifle? Maybe it doesn’t matter for your typical hunting shots. If you're bullseye shooting, an alternative is to manually load one round at a time.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Will assume (I know, I know) that you’re loading hunting ammo since the TSX is a hunting bullet. Have you tested your 3.258 COL vs Lymans’ or Barnes’ recommended COL to see if it makes an accuracy difference in your rifle? Maybe it doesn’t matter for your typical hunting shots. If you're bullseye shooting, an alternative is to manually load one round at a time.

I haven't loaded anything as yet. I've got 2 weeks off from work starting Friday to develop a load, and I was just trying to get dies set up ahead of time. I haven't loaded for this gun in many years, and the last time I did, all I did was paint the bullet with black sharpie and loaded it into the chamber, then looked to see if there were marks on the paint from the lands. I kept seating the bullet deeper and deeper until there were no marks. (That was also a using a much shorter 60 grn cup and core lead bullet.) Although, that netted half MOA, so maybe I should toss the fancy comparator tools and do that.

I'd prefer to have a solution to go on (I've also emailed Barnes, but I've emailed them before and they never responded, so no faith that they will this time, either.), but, absent a solution, I plan to, as you suggested, just try it and see what happens. I guess I'll just seat the bullet deeper and deeper until it functions properly in the gun, record the COAL, and then do accuracy testing from there, seating the bullet a few thousandths deeper at a time.

And yeah, this will be a caribou hunting load, so while I don't need competition level accuracy, I expect to be shooting out to 350 yrds max, so it can't just be willie-nille whatever I just plop together, either. My goal here is half MOA, given that the factory Barnes VOR-TX shoots about 1.5 MOA from my rifle. I guess I could accept 1 MOA and justify the labor with reduced cost per round.

(I derived 350 yrds from a.)my last caribou was at 312, and b.) 350 yrds is the range beyond which the bullet is going to slow for reliable expansion/performance.)

 

[cheygriz]

I was surprised at the .050 recommendation. I've never loaded a rifle cartridge more than .020 off the rifling, and .005 is much more common.??????????????????????

 

[Jack B.]

Depends on what your rifle likes. You have to go test them to find out what is the best.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/setting-loads-optimum-accuracy/

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I was surprised at the .050 recommendation. I've never loaded a rifle cartridge more than .020 off the rifling, and .005 is much more common.??????????????????????

I believe that has something to do with the fact that these are monolithinc (single material) all copper, lead-fee, projectiles. I've never loaded these before, and, like you, I always seated much closer to the lands.

However, in this case, it wouldn't work anyway. I'm .050 off the lands and the cartridge won't feed, seating to ,010 off the lands will only increase the length of the cartridge.

I must be doing something wrong. I'v eloaded rounds for this gun in the past that were closer to the lands and didn't have a problem.

 

[Jim Watson]

Not with those same bullets, I bet.
If for hunting, seat the bullets to fit the magazine and take whatever OAL, gauge, or jump that turns out.

 

[edwardware]

My practice is to ignore the manual's COAL data, and load for the rifle's chamber throat and magazine.

Unless you're hotrodding, or closing the jump in a Weatherby chamber, start with starting data and work up in your rifle.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Not with those same bullets, I bet.
If for hunting, seat the bullets to fit the magazine and take whatever OAL, gauge, or jump that turns out.

No. That was a 60 grain Sierra Match King HPBT for NRA High Power competition.

 

[reddog81]

I'd just seat the bullet deeper and deeper until it functions appropriately in the magazine and rifle. Once you find a OAL that works 100% then try seating a little further out until you run into problems. I'm sure there's a more scientific approach using various tools, but I just keep tweaking the seating die until the round chambers. It only takes a couple of minutes at most.

Lead is much more dense than copper. I'm assuming you're using the appropriate load data since copper bullets will be about 25% larger than lead bullets and take up significantly more space inside the case.

 

[cheygriz]

Color me "old fashioned," I guess.

I have never found any reason to abandon "cup and core" boat tail soft points.

 

[WestKentucky]

Exactly where is the bullet hitting the gun to jam it up. A picture would be nice.

Have you verified that trim length is appropriate? Seems that there’s another issue here that’s not immediately visible. I’m not familiar with loading specifically for savage rifles. Could it be that your lands have burnt out over the years of firing? .243 does t seem to be a barrel burner, but then again it is a small bullet at notable speed with a big case relative to bullet size.

 

[JimKirk]

Not with those same bullets, I bet.
If for hunting, seat the bullets to fit the magazine and take whatever OAL, gauge, or jump that turns out.

I'd just seat the bullet deeper and deeper until it functions appropriately in the magazine and rifle.

You really don't have any choice except to load to the length that will function in the (magazine) ( unless you plan on loading the gun as a single shot)...

Once you determine the OAL that will work ...then you have to develop a load that will give you the accuracy you want ... I have found sometimes the combination just flat will not work ...

I have been working on a 80 grain TTSX white tail deer load in my .25/06 ... I have not give up YET ... but I have exhausted much of my plans .... in the mean time I have a 110 grain Accubond load that is deadly ...

My suggestion is load at the OA L that Barnes says and give it a try ... You never know ...May meet your accuracy demands...

 

[Varminterror]

I was surprised at the .050 recommendation. I've never loaded a rifle cartridge more than .020 off the rifling, and .005 is much more common.??????????????????????

Monometal bullets like the TTSX like a LOT of jump. I tried them many years ago, gave them up because I couldn’t get them to shoot, it was probably 10yrs later I had another forum user I chatted with quite often tell me they liked 50-70thousandths jump, bingo bango, tiny groups.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Color me "old fashioned," I guess.

I have never found any reason to abandon "cup and core" boat tail soft points.

I'm actually pretty old fashioned, too. Last season I hit a small cow caribou, probably 2 years old and 200-250 lbs.

312 yards with Winchester 100 grn powerpoints 243 WIn. I was up above her by 20 ft or so on a hill. 1st hit, she stumbled. Stood there a few seconds and layed down. Few minutes later, long enough for me to put my rifle away, she stood up and started walking away. I ran down the hill to about 120 yrds and hit her again. I could see blood pouring out from under her chest. I'm pissed at myself for not putting a third in her ear. She layed down but kept her head up for a bout 5 more minutes. Apparently I hit twice a few inches apart behind her front right shoulder.

She wasn't jumping, flopping, kicking around, and she didn't make any noise. I'm lucky she layed down rather than ran. All of the meat is in the freezer, but I'm not happy with way it all went down. Because of that, I decided to try these "premium" bullets so many folks rave about. Understanding I have to hit the vitals, but if I don't see some better results next time around, I'm going to move up to a 30-06. I much prefer to keep my 243, so I'm hoping these Barnes bullets help me do that.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Exactly where is the bullet hitting the gun to jam it up. A picture would be nice.

Have you verified that trim length is appropriate? Seems that there’s another issue here that’s not immediately visible. I’m not familiar with loading specifically for savage rifles. Could it be that your lands have burnt out over the years of firing? .243 does t seem to be a barrel burner, but then again it is a small bullet at notable speed with a big case relative to bullet size.

I don't have the technology to get photos online at the moment. But the nose of the bullet is hitting the edge of the chamber, on the outside face, at about 9 oclock.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

And yeah, this will be a caribou hunting load, so while I don't need competition level accuracy, I expect to be shooting out to 350 yrds max, so it can't just be willie-nille whatever I just plop together, either. My goal here is half MOA, given that the factory Barnes VOR-TX shoots about 1.5 MOA from my rifle. I guess I could accept 1 MOA and justify the labor with reduced cost per round.

Do you see what you're writing here? You will accept 1 MOA on a hunting rifle but you're not happy?

Not so long ago we hunted with rifles not made on CNC machines that shot maybe 2 MOA and still filled the freezer. How did we ever get it done? When did everyone confuse benchrest with hunting? wow

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Do you see what you're writing here? You will accept 1 MOA on a hunting rifle but you're not happy?

Not so long ago we hunted with rifles not made on CNC machines that shot maybe 2 MOA and still filled the freezer. How did we ever get it done? When did everyone confuse benchrest with hunting? wow

Yeah, I get your point. My grandfather fed his family through the depression with a 30-30. SHooting at running deer at 50 yards.

I'm shooting at (hopefully) standing caribou out to 300 yrds. The vital zone is about 14 inches. 1 MOA is 25% of the vitalsThe aiming black on the SR-3 300 yard NRA Hi-Power target is 19 inches. I hunt in alpine tundra at elevation; it is almost always windy. I shoot the same rifle I used to compete with with the same sling. I use the same spotting scope. How much different is this from competition? (other than a miss = a injured animal)

 

[D.B. Cooper]

So I went down this whole path again tonight only this time with the 80 grn TTSX bullet.

This stuff boggles the mind.

The 80 grn would be 2.805 COAL to be .050 off the lands. Too long to function in the gun. (bolt wouldn't even close.) I ended up with a COAL of 2.770 with the cartridge functioning fine in the gun. That's longer than the 85 grn TSX COAL that won't function in the gun. I seated an 85 grn bullet in the seating die with the same exact setting and I got a longer COAL. smh

 

[D.B. Cooper]

And on a related side note, just how deep can I seat these bullets? Doing some measuring and some math, then comparing to the Lyman's data, the base of the bullets are below the shoulder when seated deep enough to get the bolt to cycle. It almost feels as if the bullets are just too long for this caliber. YET...the factory loaded VOR-TX versions of these bullets fit and work fine and shoot decent.

 

[LoonWulf]

Monometal bullets like the TTSX like a LOT of jump. I tried them many years ago, gave them up because I couldn’t get them to shoot, it was probably 10yrs later I had another forum user I chatted with quite often tell me they liked 50-70thousandths jump, bingo bango, tiny groups.

I had nearly the exact same initial experience with the monos. I never did get back on that horse tho, not yet anyway. I'll have to try them again with the longer jump.

 

[Blue68f100]

So I went down this whole path again tonight only this time with the 80 grn TTSX bullet.

This stuff boggles the mind.

The 80 grn would be 2.805 COAL to be .050 off the lands. Too long to function in the gun. (bolt wouldn't even close.) I ended up with a COAL of 2.770 with the cartridge functioning fine in the gun. That's longer than the 85 grn TSX COAL that won't function in the gun. I seated an 85 grn bullet in the seating die with the same exact setting and I got a longer COAL. smh

Sounds like you have a measurement off on your distance to land.

Are you using the special seating stem with these long skinny bullets? I found the tips to hit the end of the seating stem if I did not modify the seating stem or install the special one specific for ELD type bullets.

 

[Birdhunter1]

Will the rounds as is go in the chamber if single loaded and not fed out of the mag?
I've had that issue with my Tikka 243 loading bullets that area seated in such a manner that they would not load in a mag but I could single feed just fine.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Sounds like you have a measurement off on your distance to land.

Are you using the special seating stem with these long skinny bullets? I found the tips to hit the end of the seating stem if I did not modify the seating stem or install the special one specific for ELD type bullets.

I'm not sure to what you refer when you say "seating stem"; could you verify?

If you mean the gray plastic rod that goes inside the red tube of the chamber measure, then yes, I'm using that, but I haven't modified it. I thread the modified case on the red tube, side the gray rod into the tube and through the case. I pu a bullet in the case and load the hole thing into the chamber. I press red tube forward to the breech and hold it there while I press the gray rod (and the bullet) forward it until it stop. I use a cleaning rod in from the muzzle end to slide the bullet in and out of the chamber a few time to make sure it's all lined up, then I press the bullet up against the lands. While holding the red tube forward, I keep the bullet against the lands and then lock it all down with the thumb screw. Then I remove everything and measure from the case base to the ogive.