Bullwhips

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FSCJedi

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Anyone use them? Just wonderin' what the general consensus is concerning them. I just ordered one from westernstageprops.com. An 8' 12-plait Australian with mahogany colored leather. Probably around 10' total including the fall and popper.

I know that the "short whip" (more of a flexible stick than a whip, in my opinion) is taught for self defense, but what about the actual bull whip. I saw a really cool pic of a group of mounted cowboys surrounded by a crowd of people and successfully keeping them at bay with nothing but thier whips. I know if you use one you're suppose to use another smaller and faster melee weapon in your off hand, like a dagger or something similarly quick.

So let's talk BULLWHIPS! :) The floor is open.
 
AFAIK, there is no codified Western whip-fighting tradition, unlike surviving Asian schools of flexibles.

Bullwhips are fairly capable weapons, but they're not exactly the first thing you're likely to have handy when the mob surrounds your car, or the punk in the parking lots demands that you give it up.

John
 
Oddly enough the wife and I are going to be taking glasses at the San Francisco Bullwhip Workshop after seeing a demo of their work at a local street fair.

Not my first choice for a weapon; but you gotta admit, way cool.

FSCJedi, at this point you know more than me. All I know is from old Westerns and pirate movies when someone lips off to the captain. 'Arggg, 10 lashes to the scurvy dog.
 
Bullwhips are way cool. I had one for awhile but gave it to a BIL. They do take a little getting used to but could be fairly fearsome to passive aggression. I never used one against the elephant, just a novelty.

Trying to break ballons with them is fun. Careful though, I got myself in the neck with one before I learned the ropes.

:D

(My understanding of them is that the 'crack' is a sonic crack.) ?
 
Whip (fouet) is taught in some of the salles of savate defense; and it is also taught as an 'exotic weapon' in the American Heritage Fighting Arts Association curriculum.

It is a somewhat...problematical...weapon. The actual danger area presented by the whip is very narrowly defined -- literally a matter of inches at the end of your whip line -- and the amount of open space needed to get it into action is considerable.

In well-trained hands, the terminal effects of 6-9 inches of braided steel leader line, weighing I don't know how many grains, accelerated past the speed of sound before impacting soft tissue has got to be seen to be believed.

If your opponent can focus past the un-nerving 'cracks' in front of his face, has steady nerves and a bit of awareness concerning timing, a whip can be taken away from its' wielder fairly easily.

That being said, whip training develops a fantastic sense of timing, distance and grace -- all of which can't hurt the rest of your fighting skills.

LawDog
 
Kinky, but I'd take a flamethrower.
*Opens gas valve, turns the pressure regulator, ignites the gas, pushes the napalm release...*
 
I think they are cool in that neato sense. As far as a defensive weapon, they are useless IMO. Lawdog is dead on about the problems with the whip. Besides, even if you could use one effectively, are you going to carry one around?
 
"...pirate movies..." That'd be a cat-o-nine-tails not a bull whip. I seem to recall reading some place how truly dangerous a bull whip can be in untrained hands. Eyes put out, etc. They're not exactly something you can lug around without drawing unwanted constabuary attention.
 
Quote by LawDog:

In well-trained hands, the terminal effects of 6-9 inches of braided steel leader line, weighing I don't know how many grains, accelerated past the speed of sound before impacting soft tissue has got to be seen to be believed.

Does this mean you've actually seen a whip that was modified like this? I'd be very interested in knowing how the whip was modified and what the actual effects were on the target in question.
 
I've seen a fifteen-foot snake (like a bullwhip, but without the wooden handle) that had the popper replaced with six inches of wire from a fishing leader.

The wire leader was unravelled a bit and woven into the leather braiding in the same way that a cloth or leather popper is.

Properly cracked, it severed a one-inch diameter dowel rod. Rather neatly bisected one of those brick-sized boneless ham things, too.

Cracking it against a chicken carcass, while not completely severing the chicken carcass, did produce a four-inch long laceration to a depth of two-three inches.

The gentleman who owned the whip confided in me that while the wire popper was fairly spectacular, it was when the wire decided to part ways with the whip that things got really interesting.

I have since decided that occupying the same general spatial co-ordinates as six inches of wire travelling in a random direction at 900 feet per second might be a touch more traumatic than I really need in a self-defense type of situation.

LawDog
 
six inches of wire travelling in a random direction at 900 feet per second might be a touch more traumatic than I really need in a self-defense type of situation

:what:

I have a vision of a notched-wire fragmentation grenade going off... except the wire is in one piece... and it's going in one direction...
 
While LawDog's points are well taken, the bullwhip is a niche weapon that can be very effective in trained hands. It is just not one with a popular real world following right now and unfortunately has a very romantic cinematic image. In the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) I study there is an old tradition of using either a bullwhip in the 6 to 8 foot range or a short flexible reed type whip approximately 3 feet in length with a close range bladed weapon in the other hand. Not many instructors teach the whip as it is not emphasized as strongly as the other weapons (e.g., knives, swords, sticks, etc.) in the FMAs. Of the several FMA instructors I have asked about whip training, many had trained with it, several suggested that space in their dojo was too limited to train with it, and almost all of them expressed a desire to learn more about their use as a weapon.

Whenever the discussion of the bullwhip comes up, the mention of a determined aggressor charging past the snapping whip is brought up and emphasized. While this is a realistic possibility, I firmly believe it is the exception and not the norm. I submit to you that the majority of bad guys out there are cowards and blowhards that will turn tail the moment their illegal activities become somewhat difficult. To describe the wounds inflicted by an 8 foot bullwhip as making a BG's job more difficult is an understatement.

To me, the bullwhip is also an extremely versatile tool. Beyond it's use as a weapon, It can serve as a expedient 8 foot of lifeline to throw someone you're trying to pull from the water out of a hole, etc. Small to medium sized animals you do not wish to kill can be humanely repelled with it. In a defensive role it can be used as an impact weapon coiled if the handle is weighted properly (e.g., shot loaded) or used as a garrotte if necessary. It also allows you to keep BGs at a greater distance than pepper spray. Of course, one could always use it for its traditional purpose of spurring on cattle and horses if one is so inclined. :)

The bullwhip also has the virtue of not being banned from carry in Texas. Unfortunately, with or without a handgun carry permit, Texans are forbade from carrying "illegal clubs" (expandable baton) and "illegal knives" in public. maximum legal blade length is 5 1/2 inches single sided. As for carrying it concealed all one must to is mount it coiled on the offside of a shoulder rig under a light jacket. A shorter 6 to 8 foot whip coiled can be quite easily concealed with a little effort.

So when it comes to less than lethal force in civilian hands in Texas, you have a choice of a Taser gun, pepper spray, or a bulllwhip. Each has it advantages and limitations. Personally, I don't trust the Taser quite yet, carry pepper spray daily, and recognize the aerosol's many limitations. I'm planning on adding a whip to my kit in the future once I feel competent with it. In the hierarchy of force the bullwhip falls between pepper spray and a baton, or perhaps even with the baton.

The final decision is a personal choice. Make it realistically and choose wisely.
 
From this list of definitions, I can't find any mention of "whips" on there anywhere. The closest thing would be under #9: Deadly Weapons. However, a good lawyer could argue that a bullwhip or stockwhip (cat-o-nine tails is a different story all together) was not designed "an instrument which is designed to be used to produce serious bodily injury or death", but as an instrument of intimidation.

I do like the idea of a shoulder harness for the whip. How would one rig something up like this? I ordered a belt carrier with my whip, and truthfully, once I get proficient enough (for my liking), I probably will carry it around. I, to, am liscensed to carry concealed here in WV (and VA and KY). However, I can see the advantages to having a whip handy in certain situations.
 
Hello everyone. My thanks to FSCJedi for showing me the way here. This is my kind of thread. The discussion of whips! There have been some excellent comments made here. Very cool stuff.

I love the bullwhip as a weapon. Sure it isn't a tactical weapon for a soldier but it is effective in its power to intimidate and inflict extremely painful yet superficial injury. If the handler is well trained in both the weaknesses and strengths of a whip, that is.

For instance, all of you guys who made the quip about a gun have to realize that a well trained handler is not going to stand fifty yards away waiting for you to draw your firearm. A bullwhip is a fast attack, first strike weapon. If a smart handler is going to deploy his/her bullwhip for offensive or defensive purposes you can bet that 1.) you will be in range and 2.) you'll have severe facial trauma before you ever get to your firearm. An even smarter whip handler will have vacated the situation with out sticking around to see if the injury inflicted was serious or not.

Now, I'm not exactly new to bullwhips and whip cracking. I've been messing around with whips since my childhood. Just with in the last couple of years I've began learning the craft of making whips.

This is an eight footer I made back in November of '03. It is done in the classic David Morgan style. (a.k.a. Indiana Jones bullwhip)
whip2003.jpg


This one is what I carry while hiking and camping. I braided the diamond handle shorter and added two ring knots which keep the handle secured in the whip holster while moving. Approx. 7' long.
hiking_whip.jpg


This next photo is a whip of my own design. It is what I call a Pocket Bull (TM). It is small like a pocket snake whip but has a short handle foundation giving it more control like a bullwhip. The length is four feet from knob to point (end of braid) and easily coils to fit into a cargo pocket or bag. I carry this whip quite often and have used it to fend off unleashed dogs on many occasions. It is very fast, very loud and very painful. The butt knob can double as a black jack for closer encounters.
PB003.jpg


So I guess you could say that I am a firm believer in the bullwhip as a weapon. However, it takes hundreds of hours of practice to master. Unlike a sword or club or knife or gun which can be used to inflict serious injury even with out proper training or instruction, a whip takes time and patience to learn and use effectively. If you're looking to use a whip as a non-lethal tool of self-defense and have never used one before, I don't recommend carrying one with you right away. Get proper instruction or a tape and then practice 'till your arm is ready to fall off. When that happens, switch hands and keep going.
 
BEAUTIFUL WORK!

You have very good looking whips! I've been wanting to get more into whips and master them as well. I think every one of us have a little cowboy in us. ;) I too have an affinity for making my own stuff, and since I have yet to see a quality bullwhip around here, perhaps I should learn the art. How long does it take to make one and is there a good source for instruction and materials?
 
Hey Bullwhip,

Thanks for the beautiful photos and sharing your experience with us.

Can you comment a bit about the reinforced or "shot loaded" whip handles I have read about in the past?

Others have suggested such a handle could be used as a close quarters impact weapon in an energency if the assailant was to close to you to employ the whip. Any thoughts or experience you could share would be invaluble.

Does such a handle change the balance and cracking ability of the bulllwhip appreciably?

Thanks again.
 
Bullwhip,

Welcome to THR. Your whips look well made.

have to realize that a well trained handler is not going to stand fifty yards away waiting for you to draw your firearm

Somehow, I'm not too worried about this eventuality. :)

My take on the whip is that it's a fun toy. There may be some few people who actually might have cause to carry one in the course of their work (the few remaining cowpokes), and for them, it may be an excellent less-lethal tool. There are just better tools around for other uses, such as carrying concealed.

John
 
BeLikeTrey You wrote:
You have very good looking whips! I've been wanting to get more into whips and master them as well. I think every one of us have a little cowboy in us. I too have an affinity for making my own stuff, and since I have yet to see a quality bullwhip around here, perhaps I should learn the art. How long does it take to make one and is there a good source for instruction and materials?

Thank you for the compliment.

I'm just a hobbiest when it comes to whip making so I break the construction process up over the course of a few days. If really pushed I could probably make one in a couple days. The pros can easily produce a couple whips (or more) a day.

As far as making your own whip I suggest buying a quality whip and learning to use it first. Knowing how and why a whip cracks helps you understand what you are building if you decide to try. Jumping in and trying to build a whip with out any instruction or knowledge of cracking will give you very poor results. There are a few books on the subject but none of them show how to build a quality bullwhip. Contact me offline and I can give you more details.

Anthony wrote:
Can you comment a bit about the reinforced or "shot loaded" whip handles I have read about in the past?

Others have suggested such a handle could be used as a close quarters impact weapon in an energency if the assailant was to close to you to employ the whip. Any thoughts or experience you could share would be invaluble.

Does such a handle change the balance and cracking ability of the bulllwhip appreciably?

Two of the most important qualities a whip needs in order to help it crack easily are taper and weight. Shot loading is just one way in which a whip maker does this. Another method is using braided bellies which is what I prefer to use.

The shot loaded handle you are referring too is what is used in a snake whip. Snake whips are similar to bullwhips but instead of having a rigid handle foundation they have a tapered bag loaded with lead shot that starts at the knot and extends for a distance down the core of the whip. This results in a flexible grip section that makes it easy to coil into a pocket or saddle bag but requires much more wrist action in order to crack. Yes, the weighted knots sections of these whips can be used as a sort of black jack or sap in CQB. Personally I do not prefer snake whips. I use bullwhips and stock whips because the rigid handles are much more versitile for multiple cracking routines and target work.
 
Looks like I killed the discussion. Sorry 'bout that. I'm knew to your group so I hope I didn't break protocol somehow. Take care.
 
Nah' you didn't kill it. You provided a lot of quality information. If you look around, you'll see we don't have a whole lot of protocol here. If you have some information, go ahead and share it!

I don't have anything more to add until the wife and I take those classes I mention above. Rather hold my tongue that speak from ignorance.

Learning how to use a bullwhip correctly does soundcool, but honestly, I'd never look to it as a defensive weapon. I live in San Francisco; it's tough enough to find an open parking spot, let alone room to crack a whip.
 
I grew up on a dairy farm, worked with thousands of cows over the years, also did a little bit of open range style stuff. My Dad loved the idea of the bullwhip, and purchased a very nice one with the intent of learning how to use it to herd cows.

Unfortunatly for the rest of us, he was way more dangerous to the human beings trying to help than to any cow he may have actually been aiming at. :D As Bullwhip pointed out above, this is an item that requires serious practice to master! (I would recommend wearing your safety goggles as well).

(looking around for PETA people, nope, all clear) Personally my anti-bull weapon was a 3 foot length of galvanized barn pipe. :) Didn't take much skill to master, but pipeing a bull in the nose usually got its attention.
 
Learning how to use a bullwhip correctly does soundcool, but honestly, I'd never look to it as a defensive weapon. I live in San Francisco; it's tough enough to find an open parking spot, let alone room to crack a whip.

QuarterBoreGunner,

All you need is a public park with nice soft grass and you have the perfect place to start cracking. You may have an LEO come over and inquire about it but just be polite and do what you can to remove their concern. If they try making it into being a dangerous weapon gently inform them that whips are regarded as agricultural tools and not weapons.

Good luck on your classes. I hope you find that the hobby suits you.

I grew up on a dairy farm, worked with thousands of cows over the years, also did a little bit of open range style stuff. My Dad loved the idea of the bullwhip, and purchased a very nice one with the intent of learning how to use it to herd cows.

Unfortunatly for the rest of us, he was way more dangerous to the human beings trying to help than to any cow he may have actually been aiming at. As Bullwhip pointed out above, this is an item that requires serious practice to master! (I would recommend wearing your safety goggles as well).

Correia,

Great story. Does your Dad still have that whip?

You bring up a good point about safety too. If you are a beginning whip cracker you'll want a pair of safety classes, a wide brimmed hat (or helmet), long pants, thick jacket and maybe even gloves. You will hit yourself and that is a fact. These things will help minimize the damage. A friend of mine almost lost an eye during his learning phase. The popper came back and smacked his eye and caused blindness for several days. Per doctors orders he had to lie down with an compress for a week away from work or he risked rupturing a blood vessel and causing permament vision loss. He fully recovered though. So have fun but be very safe.
 
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