Burst Walker Cylinder

Status
Not open for further replies.
A 285 grain conical has a heckuva lot more inertia than a 141 grain round ball, regardless of the bearing surface. Look at the loading charts for any cartridge and you see that the maximum powder charge decreases as the bullet weight increases. Further increasing pressure with driving band design compounds the problem. At some point the bullet comes close to being an immovable object. I think the Walker is telling us that physics applies to percussion guns too. Increased inertia results in higher chamber pressure, and that pressure is going to go somewhere...

And an ASM Walker is not a Ruger Old Army.
 
Last edited:
Some of the .44 cal cartridges from the Civil War had 250 grn conicals in them.

I designed the 285 grn bullet for hunting things that may require added penetration.

The pics I've seen of the Colt Walker and Dragoon cylinders show a lot of meat between the chambers compared to a Remington NMA. They don't look weak to me.

Pyrodex is hardly a hot powder. A fellow who researched original CW cartridges found the Hazard's Pistol Powder was akin to Swiss 4F.

These were cast from pure lead from recycled lead piping. No alloy.

The driving bands are each 0.1" long, which is a little longer than what I've typically seen.
 
ditton on the ..446-.447 ASM chambers. The Rugers are usually happiest with .457 balls as do original remingtons
 
A quick look at Hodgdon's load data would seem to say , bullet weight to heavy. Bearing surface to large. To much powder. Plus, add some air space between bullet base & powder? KABOOOM.
 
The hottest load I have ever shot is a .457" 141 gr. round ball over 50gr. of Pyro P with a felt wad in my ROA.
Shot a cylinder full once, loading lever actually dropped twice on me, felt like a very warm .44 magnum.
The ROA took it(it was my proof test).
I cannot imagine a bullet twice the weight with 40gr of Pyro P would hold up in a Walker.
You might be able to get that bullet over 30gr in an ROA and it would most likely take it but would start at 25gr and work up.
All part of load development.
And yes, people question that I can actually get 50gr of Pyro P in my ROA, yes I can with no air space and firmly packed.

Just saying.

Clarence
 
Last edited:
Ok mi compadres, you know me and numbers so here we go:
In a previous post on this thread I calculated a cylinder depth of .97" available for the powder charge using a .125" wad and assuming the conical bullet was inserted into the chamber such that the very tip of the bullet was even to the front plane of the cylinder. Using a cylinder bore of .447" for an ASM and asking H.A.L. to make the appropriate calcs then he came up with an available volume for the powder of 38.5 grains by volume...thus 40 grains was probably loaded. If the wad was not inserted and/or or the bullet was not seated as I assumed, then there could have been a small air gap above the powder charge. But then you all know how far we can trust H.A.L.
 
elhombreconnonombre said:
Ok mi compadres, you know me and numbers so here we go:
In a previous post on this thread I calculated a cylinder depth of .97" available for the powder charge using a .125" wad and assuming the conical bullet was inserted into the chamber such that the very tip of the bullet was even to the front plane of the cylinder. Using a cylinder bore of .447" for an ASM and asking H.A.L. to make the appropriate calcs then he came up with an available volume for the powder of 38.5 grains by volume...thus 40 grains was probably loaded. If the wad was not inserted and/or or the bullet was not seated as I assumed, then there could have been a small air gap above the powder charge. But then you all know how far we can trust H.A.L.
Click to expand...
your nickname does that mean the man with no name?

sorry I know totally off topic.

but very fitting to the BP forum or mad max 3
 
Last edited:
Yes. 285 grs is a great deal of weight. Pyro P is not particularly powerful. Old Eynsford and Swiss for example are more powerful by volume than Pyrodex. Detonation seems most likely but that's just too much bullet for an old repro.
 
I don't have a Walker, do have a 3rd Model Dragoon. The cylinder walls in those things are unusually thick, I believe it was because Colt did not have a good idea of what the metal of the era could hold. As they become more familiar with what the steels could hold, later Colts have thinner walls.

Still, even though 1970’s steels are better than 1850 steels, I doubt these replica blackpowder pistols are made of alloy steels and probably are not hardened. There is no need as blackpowder pressures are so low.

My guess, the pressures with that bullet and powder combination are too high for dead soft plain carbon steels.
 
285 gr

here's a couple things.
It very well could of been marginal metalurgy.
And it could of had stout loads by a previous owner.
and those combined with this.
NON ROA's
Most have chamber diameters of .446 to .449

While Rodwhas base is .445 (rebated) the rest of the bullet is .456
The groove is likely .449 (minus .4 twice)
When seating a round ball or a conical the sides that are larger than chamber diameter are both shaved AND swaged.
The two sealing lands:
Bottom one is going to be swaged upward into the lube groove filling it in.
Thus the bottom band will become wider, creating more surface area.
The lube groove which is already the same diameter or slightly bigger than the chamber diameter now exacerbates the issue.
Then the upper sealing band duplicates this problem; it becomes a a wider surface and causes the bottom of the ogive which is also by the drawing .456.
Thus throughout the length of this design, there is a very large amount of friction seating surface. Easily 4 times more than what is created in the seating of the round ball. (seat a round ball with no powder till just flush and watch how it is, then carefully drive it back out with a rod from nipple end smd see the seating surface that is created).

I believe the pressures needed to get this bullet moving were just too much.
Then add either or both of the above, The cylinder weak point gave way.

A Ruger Old army, has slightly larger chambers to start with, that's why the .457 ball is recommended, vs the .451 / .454 for the normal colt and remington 44's.
Also the ruger is made with better quality materials to start with.

Under normal conditions the 40 gr would not of generated excess pressure moving a round ball that weighed 1/2 as much and 1 /4 the seating surface.
just m.o.
 
My vote is for a flaw in the cylinder. Both the owner and the previous owner stated the revolver had never been fired previously, to their knowledge.

I agree that the load is very heavy, but others fire this load in similar revolvers. This load could easily be 3 or 4x standard pressures, but these revolvers can usually take it. A simple flaw in a 1970s Italian replica BP revolver is not beyond the imagination.
 
Actually, if you look, the lube groove is certainlty under the potential chamber diameter as it's .400".

I certainly cannot say, though, that the lead from the lower driving band isn't pushed into the lube groove in a smaller chamber as you say, though that also goes for ever other conical too.
 
Regardless of how thick or thin the chamber wall to the exterior, the damaged cylinder shows the bolt notch coincides with the chamber and is the thinest area of the chamber wall.

not hared to imagine that the rupture started threre

I just examined my pietta 1851 navy and the chamber walls are about an eighth of an inch, but the bolt notches reduce that thickness to about a 16th of an inch right at the bottom of the chamber

I remember when some 13/16 atf barrels in 50 caliber were sold here.

I would not shoot that walker load and weight conical in something that thin. Considering how thin the chamber wall could be at the bolt notch such loads may be foolhardy
 
My vote is AIR GAP. While it could have been a cylinder with a defect I'm thinking that someone inexperienced (new Walker owner) with fully seating the bullet on the powder may have not fully understood that the Walker can hold 60 grains and when you load it up with 40 grains you have to seat the bullet that much further down. Possible that the longer contact surface of the bullet and additional friction that ramming the bullet down gave the owner the impression the bullet was fully seated when it really needed more force to get it all the way down.

Wasthe molded bullet resized to 0.452? Also, was the lead alloy a soft or hard mix?
 
Interesting thoughts though the walker cylinder will hold (barely) 60 grains of fffg under a 141 grain ball. It will hold approximately 45 grains under the standard form Walker picket bullet.
these bullets were apparently for dragoon-sized revolvers but, being civil war pickups might also have been for the various newer .44s including the 60 army. One of them appears to be cast and the other swaged. Both are markedly lighter than the bullet in question and have considerably less bearing surface.

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • dragoon bullets.jpg
    dragoon bullets.jpg
    72 KB · Views: 136
So have we confirmed that a wad was definitely used over the powder charge AND the bullet was fully seated based on the previous calculations I provided in this thread? The combination of a small air gap plus the heavy bullet acting as a plug could possibly have contributed to a pressure spike. Are there any other reports of ASM cylinders being destroyed thusly with heavy bullets and/or any size bp/bp sub charge?
Also did the bullet remain in the burst chamber or did the pressure spit it on down the barrel as it detonated. If it door it out, was the bullet recovered and examined?
Quien sabe
 
the bullets were sold to me by shiloh relics as being civil war battlefield pick ups designed for .44 revolvers. The configuration of the bullets especially the rebated heal is Very characteristic of revolver bullets. The rebated heal facilitates seating the bullets in the chamber and was one thing lacking in the picket bullets used in the walker

The projectiles used in the carbine cartridge are healed in that they do have a small reduced area at the base that is seated in the cartridge case. Healed bullets are still used on .22 rimfire and were very common in the early days metallic cartridges. Further, the bullets on available pictures of the .46 ball carbine cartridges have the multiple external grease grooves that were an important element of bullets that had the same external diameter as the cartridge case.

The Old Style Confederate Colt .44 bullet below is the same diameter and length as mine and presumably weighs about the same.

attachment.php





attachment.php


these pictures are commercial advertising from
http://americancivilwarrelics.com/Civil War Bullets.htm
and:
http://www.ebay.com
 

Attachments

  • 46 ball ctg.jpg
    46 ball ctg.jpg
    11.1 KB · Views: 125
  • bullets.jpg
    bullets.jpg
    62.6 KB · Views: 125
Last edited:
I sent a fellow a few of my 285 grn WFN bullets to try out. Last night I saw how he posted that his Walker cylinder burst when he tried it with 40 grns of Pyrodex P. The rip across the cylinder was horrendous!

Bullet:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...=45-285C-D.png

Walker:

http://1858remington.com/discuss/ind...ic,7700.0.html

When I designed this I gave it a broader driving band with the intentions of it raising the pressures to increase the velocity a bit as this long bullet takes up powder capacity in my Ruger, which is what I designed it for. I also gave it the wide FN so that it created a big hole, but also to reduce the overall length, to get more sectional density without taking up valued capacity.

I'm surprised that his cylinder ruptured with such a moderate charge. Had it have been loaded with Triple 7 or some such I might not be quite as flabbergasted.

I tried to load these in my Ruger on my last outing, but forgot that I figured a max charge to be about 25 grns, and I absentmindedly tried 30, and so the bullet wouldn't fully seat and left me with an unusable pistol until I got home to clear it. I had to open up the loading window of my Ruger (hated to modify it) just to be able to load these as I hadn't taken into account the width at the nose and how it would be effected by the frame.

What are your thoughts on this? What say you?
__________________
_________________________________________________________________________________
"Were I to leave where else would I go? Your words of life and of truth You hold." - Third Day

Forget not that He left His throne to pay our price, and a hefty one it was indeed!

"I ask not the favor given to Paul," Copernicus said, "I seek not the grace bestowed upon Peter--but I beg the mercy granted to the thief on the cross!" - Alexander Smellie 1899
rodwha is offline Report Post






In all honesty why would a person shoot a pistol bullet designed by a person they do not know?

They do not know the diameters and bands of the bullet much less than the composition of the metal.

Seems like Forrest Gump is back, stupid is as stupid does..




"so the bullet wouldn't fully seat and left me with an unusable pistol until I got home to clear it. I had to open up the loading window of my Ruger (hated to modify it) just to be able to load these as I hadn't taken into account the width at the nose and how it would be effected by the frame."

There are other means to deal with your problems. Have you ever considered removing the nipple, dumping a bit of powder and re-seating the ball or bullet?

You are correct in your father's assessment of you.
 
"There are other means to deal with your problems. Have you ever considered removing the nipple, dumping a bit of powder and re-seating the ball or bullet?"

After heavy compression it becomes a hard block. It certainly isn't so easy as take the nipple out and pour a little out.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

R
  • Locked
3 .45 cal Bullet Designs
Replies
17
Views
1K
jaxenro
J
R
  • Locked
Shorty Bullets
Replies
22
Views
985
rodwha
R
W
  • Locked
walker conversion cylinder
Replies
22
Views
3K
junkman_01
J
R
  • Locked
Walker Wedge Issue
2
Replies
39
Views
1K
45 Dragoon
45 Dragoon
R
  • Locked
New Cap N Ball Bullets
Replies
18
Views
1K
Rattus58
R
Back
Top