Bushmaster AR-15???

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the issue is not whether your rifle has "been fine" or for however long. the issue is whether you would recommend that someone pay almost the same amount of money for a product that has basically zero quality control. even if your bushmaster rocks, and you put thousands of rounds downrange every week and consistently get .5 MOA... that doesn't mean the next guy will, and that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you should recommend that someone buy one.

im not ripping on YOUR rifle- I'm saying bushmaster is an unecessary gamble. that's valid, in the face of the facts.
 
Well, after spending more time researching the matter, the only negatives I have heard about Bushmaster have been as they apply to the chart. As I have found speaking to people that actually own them, they actually appear to be highly respected. I found this to especially be the case amongst my friends in LE, one of which is former swat and currently handles all the qualification instruction for a major police force.

It appears that sometimes the whole is better than the sum of it's parts. I have made the purchase. BTW, try and find an M&P these days or any other AR. It's almost impossible.
 
i said this in another tread. my friend had a pwa commando ; cast reciever,probably the lowest grade ar made, but it never jammed & was very reliable. i dont think it would pull 1" groups,but it worked just fine,so im sure bushmaster,rra,colt & the others are all pretty compatable.
 
my first black rifle, BM m4 carbine LE. get the BM, try it out. if you need more acurracy you could get a dedicated upper for precision shooting for dem cayotes, i am still new to the black rifle/shooting and learning as i go on. some range results

50 yards,55g reloads stock upper m4 16"
vz58atrange007.jpg

but w/my new upper 24" bb 50 yards, were limited at 50 yards for now
bmtarget022.jpg

bmtarget023.jpg
 
A lot us us get hung up over some very small touches that one manufacturer has over another.

In reality, unless you buy a bottom-of-the-barrel, bargain basement AR that none of us ever heard of, you're going to be fine. The real key to happiness is to not get your knickers knotted over the fact that your BCG doesn't have the gas key staked like Colt stakes theirs, your's has tapered pins when XYZ uses straight pins, etc. ad naseum

Bottom line is that neither you nor I will likely fight a war with our AR and for shooting 'yotes and ground hogs/marmots/flying sharks, we'll be fine.

Besides, it's a damn AR. If it bothers you fix it or replace it. It isn't brain surgery.

RMD
 
Shadow walker not to pick on you BUT He DID pay $600 as the thread is on AR15.com Do a search. You may need to use the archive search as it is over 30 days. His question was real telling about perfomance which is the number one issue for me.

Looking at a chart and saying that is how much I will pay is nonsense as prices will vary from region to region. Heck there are 3 gun stores in Baton Rouge located a block from each other and prices very wildly to say the least amongst them. A used Colt AR15 was selling for $1250 and that pre-election.

Some of you guys need to do your own research.
 
Umm, a thread being on AR-15 isn't significant. The thread I'm replying to is this one which is on THR.

The prices are mostly a guideline so people can determine if they are being gouged and also compare features for relative price.
 
What did you guys use to judge AR's before the chart?

I've always heard good things about Bushmaster rifles until this chart started popping up on every other thread.

My brother has 2 Bushmasters and they are rock solid. I have a RRA and it is also rock solid. The chart ranks rifles on closeness to milspec for M4gery configuration rifles. I've never thought milspec to be important for hunting coyotes.... but I'm not an armchair commando.

If I was picking an AR for coyote, I would go with the Varminter / Predator lines. RRA has some nice looking configs that are more for varmint hunting. Just make sure you get a flat top to make it easier to scope it.
 
for almost the same money the M&P is a much better rifle than Bushmaster.

Like Frank said some members need to do some more research.

taking your advice i did some research and according to "some charts" (by bushmaster and s&w respectively) that m&p comes with 4140 barrel steel vs. 4150 for the bushmaster.

side note: the barrel steel stated on "the chart" is the classification for milspec barrel steel (which starts with 4150 barrel blanks)


bear with me, im still looking into all of it.
 
I have a Bushmaster lower with a bushmaster 20" hbar upper and a 16" upper. both have inexpensive scopes and both shoot 1-1 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Here is a target I shot at 50 yards with Iron sights (the peep sight on the detachable carry handle) with my Bushmaster with the 20" HBAR barrel. I was using sandbags for a rest and shooting from a bench. The best 5 shot group (group #2) is .8" center to center. I think the Bushmaster is just fine and haven't had any proplems with mine (I bought it used and it had been rode hard and put away wet before I got it) I shoot from a bench with 10 round Colt magazines.
 

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What did you guys use to judge AR's before the chart?
The same info. Bartholomew Roberts condensed much of the info already available with his thread "34 Ways to Cut Corners on Manufacturing an AR15", still accessible in the rifle forum reading library (stickied st the top of this sub forum). From there you had to inspect the rifles, and call and e-mail the manufacturers with specific questions to see what corners who was cutting.

Then Rob_S did us all a favor by putting the info into a quick reference chart. Note on the Google doc of the chart that there is an explanation of features, and contact info to inform if a manufacturer changes specs. He also notes that the chart focuses on M4 style carbines, because that's the style most commonly used for patrol and defensive AR-15s. If your 24" SS heavy bbl varmint AR fails while hunting it's no big deal in the big scheme of things. If your M4 style carbine fails when called upon to defend you or your loved ones it could mean a life. As Lee Lapin has said regarding why we carry "It's not the stakes that matter, it's the odds."

If you want a strictly hunting, range, or plinking use AR-15 buy whatever one you like best. If you're considering an AR for defensive use at all, learn what the differences in parts are, and decide which ones matter to you. Then buy accordingly.

However, given the current political situation and consumer demand level, I'd advise buying whatever AR you can get your hands on.
 
Here we go again.

If you don't know, or understand, the various features in The Chart then you need to review the Google Doc or pick up a copy of this month's Surefire Presents Guns & Ammo Combat Tactics and turn to page 64 to find an article written by me along with the Chart.

Don't read any more into The Chart than what is there.

However, there ARE certain assumptions made with interpreting The Chart and the writeup.

First is that you're interested in defensive use of the carbine. Most people would therefore agree that longevity and reliability (not in that order) are the two most important things in this case. As such, the features listed are relative to those concerns.

Second is that you're not out looking for 1/4 MOA accuracy. The hard truth is that most people can't shoot that well to begin with, and aren't going to use ammo capable of that accuracy in this type of rifle. I would submit that if what you're looking for is a bench-rest one-holer than a 16", M4 profile barrel, with a collapsible stock and GI trigger are NOT what you should be shopping for.

Third is that people want the best quality they can get at a given price. The features listed (assuming that you've decided for yourself that these features are desirable) all cost money to include in a rifle. As such, the more features you have the more expensive the rifle will be. If you don't want the features, then you can use The Chart to find the rifle with the features that you DO want and which carbines have those features.

I hear things all the time like "my Bushmaster is more accurate than my buddy's Colt" or "my Oly has run for 10k rounds without a hiccup" or "my DPMS only cost me $600". Great. Fantastic. I am extremely happy for you, and if you are happy with what you bought then I would never suggest (other than in jest) that you part with it. However, keep in mind that you are limited to sample sizes of one, or two, or whatever. What is relayed in the Chart is fact to the best of my knowledge, and there are ways to have the Chart adjusted if you disagree with the facts.

Make of it what you will, use it for what it's intended, but don't get offended that your pet carbine sample size 1 (or even 10) is further to the right than you would prefer. Soldier on with whatever makes you happy. Nobody is asking you to do anything other.

Finally, for those that ARE interested in sub MOA accuracy, and ARE capable of firing those kinds of groups, and ARE going to use the kind of ammo that can produce said groups, and DO (for whatever reason) want to do this kind of shooting with an M4-pattern carbine...

Remember this, accuracy (once the above is eliminated) is a fickle thing. Anyone that spends time around a range and keeps their eyes open will see that carbines that are virtually identical in every way will prefer different brands, weights, lengths, loadings, etc. You can have two identical Colt 6920s side-by-side right out of the box and one might find that a Black Hills 77 grain is the most accurate load for that gun, and the other may prefer a 62 grain loading from the same maker. There are so many variables that go into making a rifle accurate that ammo selection has to come into play because those variables can NEVER be identical from gun to gun.
 
taking your advice i did some research and according to "some charts" (by bushmaster and s&w respectively) that m&p comes with 4140 barrel steel vs. 4150 for the bushmaster.
Yes, that is correct.

Know also, that there are still grades of 4150, and The Chart only says "milspec" if they use the actual Mil-Spec 11595E steel.

IMHO I put more emphasis on MPI/HPT of whatever barrel steel is used and a chrome lining than on the material. non-tested 4150 vs. 4140 is a non issue for me.
 
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To the original poster....

There isn't really anything inherently "wrong" with a Bushmaster that a couple of minutes spent with the proper tools can't rectify. The issue becomes that there are better options available for the same price, significantly better options available for a small margin more, and equal options available for less money.

So the issue with BM, IMHO, comes down to a cost:value issue where the BM ratio isn't as high as some others. This does not mean that the gun is going to blow up in your hands, this does not mean that the gun is likely to shoot 10 MOA, it does not mean that it's going to have failures several times every magazine right out of the box, etc. It just means that, if you value the items listed in the Chart, then there may be better options available that make more economic sense.

My suggestion would be to take a look at the Charles Daly or the S&W M&P which tend to be around the same price as the BM. If you want to save a couple of bucks and still get the same overall quality as a BM, take a look at Stag.

If you're feeling up to it, buyin an LMT upper, lower, and bolt carrier group all separately and assembling them yourself (which is no more difficult than field stripping the gun), then you can get significantly better quality than the BM.

Right now, however, is not hte time to buy. People are going insane, and if you an wait I would. If not, you may have to settle for a BM, and frankly that ain't really all that much of a settlement.
 
i know im gonna hear it but its so crazy ive got to say it.

went by my indoor range today and there were two guy shooting ar's. one of them i have met before and the other id never seen.

the guy who ive met once before was shooting a rock river and the other guy was shooting a lewis.

as i was walking up the one id never met was walking out with a ammo box.

turns out the lewis had a round jammed ABOVE THE BOLT CARRIER.

this was keeping him from being able to clear the jam because he couldnt pull the charging handle back because the jammed round was crammed up in the reciever behind the catch on the front of the charging handle.

he had gone to the counter to say there was something wrong with the ammo. they came back with the remaining ammo in the box and shot it through a rental rifle, (not sure what kind, didnt stick around to ask)

i dont know how he cleared it or even if he did, but it looked pretty nasty from what i saw. i felt bad for the guy because he was clearly upset.
 
the guy who ive met once before was shooting a rock river and the other guy was shooting a lewis.

as i was walking up the one id never met was walking out with a ammo box.

turns out the lewis had a round jammed ABOVE THE BOLT CARRIER.

this was keeping him from being able to clear the jam because he couldnt pull the charging handle back because the jammed round was crammed up in the reciever behind the catch on the front of the charging handle.
That's very likely a magazine issue. I've had it happen personally with my old Colt SP1 when I was using a surplus Orlite mag (the was a reason they were still cheap, as 30 rounders went, during the '94-'04 AWB). After the gentleman running the range helped me clear it, we did some investigating. The feed lips were weak and it double fed. Best we could figure was that when the double feed happened the second round impacted the first popping the round up above the bolt carrier group, and the BCG wedged the nose of the round into the gas tube opening as it came forward.

Bad mags, lack of lube, and lack of cleaning - in that order - are the three biggest issues we see with AR-15s that come in for service at the shop.

To the OP whichever rifle you buy, invest in good mags for it.
 
With 5 seconds of training that kind of malfunction (jam goes on toast) can be easily cleared. Not rapidly, but easily. It is, however, the kind of thing that is quickly made much worse when the shooter doesn't know what they are doing, or doesn't have the situational awareness to realize the type of malfunction.

It most often has nothing to do with the rifle as posted above. It's one of those freak things that can happen to anyone or any rifle. Now, if it happened over and over again, with all sorts of different magazines and ammo, I'd be concerned that something was wrong with the rifle.
 
With 5 seconds of training that kind of malfunction (jam goes on toast) can be easily cleared.

what would you do to easily clear it? the range master tried to pogo it but it was locked up good.

that round was jammed so tight above the bolt that the case had split from the shoulder about halfway back to the case rim where the bolt face hit the case.

(i meant that sucker was malfunctioned so tight above the bolt...........)lol
 
Pogoing (I assume you mean "mortaring" by pulling back on the charging handle while banging the closed stock on the ground) can in fact make it worse. You *might* have some luck with this method if you are able to push the charging handle all the way forward until it latches and then just do the banging part without tugging on it. I say *MIGHT*.

What I would do, and what I was taught to do, is to stick something like the back edge of a sturdy knife or a flat-head blade of a multi-tool into the ejection port and push back on the bolt face. This allows you to separate the bolt and the attached gas key from the leading edge of the charging handle. If possible, the charging handle should still be locked in the forward position.

What usually happens, however, is people yank and yank and yank on the charging handle to the point that they really wedge the whole thing in tight, then hand the gun off to an "expert" who continues to make the problem worse, and THEN come find me and can't believe that I can't fix it. :banghead:

:D

It's definitely a frustrating thing to have happen on the range, but if immediate action and remedial action don't fix the problem (or, if after attempting immediate action you stop and assess and figure out the problem) then it's time to get out a tool.

Check out this month's SWAT for an article by Pat Rogers on malfunction clearance. I believe it's a "part 1" and covers immediate and remedial, with more to follow. You should buy next month's copy anyway since I'll have an article in it. :cool:
 
What I would do, and what I was taught to do, is to stick something like the back edge of a sturdy knife or a flat-head blade of a multi-tool into the ejection port and push back on the bolt face.

that sounds logical and very likely would have worked but they probably did this

What usually happens, however, is people yank and yank and yank on the charging handle to the point that they really wedge the whole thing in tight

You should buy next month's copy anyway since I'll have an article in it.

will it be the december issue? and will i be able to tell its by you? like "author: rob (insert last name)"

because i will get it and check it out. (might be cool to have corrosponded with the author of a piece from a mag, lol)

i actually used to subscribe to it and guns and weapons for law enforcement (years ago, 1999-2000 if i remember right)
 
The December issue is out now with part 1 of Pat's article. The January issue will be out in the first week or so of December.
 
I have a Bushmaster. It had a minor problem with the sights, so Bushmaster had the upper picked up at my home by UPS, they fixed it right, and shipped it back, all at no expense to me. They stand behind their products - I like that in a company, and I like the rifle; some thousands of rounds with the only other problem traced to one specific "refinished" magazine.

In my experience with a different Colt's firearm (not an AR) I discovered that Colt's does not actually honor their warranty; they only go through the motions.

They also did things to their rifles like removing the bayonet lug before the law required them to, and they still restrict official "non-LE" sales more than the law requires.

Their rifles generally work well, but I don't deal with shady companies. Plus, many Colt's rifles come with non-standard pins and a non-standard steel block in the lower; supposedly to prevent "machine gun" parts from being installed, it makes working on the gun more difficult than it ought to be. (Maybe this isn't done to their gray market "LE Only" rifles?)
 
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