but wait, aren't COLTS the best thing since sliced bread?

[Slamfire]

There is a common misconception that people don't like certain brands because they are not Colt. The brand doesn't really matter to most people as long s the company makes a quality product.

Brands matter. Image matters. There are people out there who are so brand conscious that their self image is based on a brand.
Rolex watches, bottled water http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Bottled_water_brands
(Perrier is one), you pick the product, and there are people who exist for the brand.

 

[kwelz]

Very true Slamfire. I think I could have stated my point better. Brand matters because that company has done something to earn the reputation they have. Other companies can do the same thing but they have not. That was more of my point.

 

[Texpatriate]

So, all those FN's in service don't meet the TDP and aren't milspec?

The TDP is for the M4. FN does not make M4's, they make M16's. Totally different set of standards. Both are AR-15 platform rifles, but their designs are significantly different.

 

[Rapier]

Well. I can only hope that everyone on the internets reads this, takes it to heart, sells off their old Colts and the price of new Colts plummets.

Especially in time for January when I want to buy mine.

Who knows, they might even be as cheap as WASR's! Or Mosins!

 

[Tirod]

http://www.americanmachinist.com/304/Issue/Article/False/8041/Issue

Beyond most of our familiarity - how Colt machines barrels, etc by exactly what machine and process. They do not hammer forge barrels. They do work hard at cutting costs, which is the primary way you can keep bidding a contract and winning it.

Since Colt is interested in making parts as cheaply as possible and still meeting quality guidelines imposed by the government to prevent cheating the taxpayer, I'm not convinced that adhering to mispec is all that noble. And just because they designed a technical data package, isn't it a list of just exactly what materials and machine operations they so diligently pursue to reduce costs and maintain a minimum level of performance?

Those terms - milspec, and TDP, are not the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. More like the GAO's continuing certification nobody's getting cheated. If there is anything about military contracts, graft, corruption, and outright thievery has the bulk of the history, from pocketing BIA funds that should have fed starving Indians, to the Truman Commission exposing military acquisitions in WWII. Read about the millions of your dollars thrown away in Iraq? Responsible people in jail awaiting trial?

Colt doesn't do this for free. They are in it for the money. Perspectives are reversed if Colt is making the gold standard highest quality firearm ever. Perhaps turning the viewscope around the other way will help. There are no perfect firearms, and government spec versions are usually minimum standard - not the best.

Colt doesn't hammer forge barrels. Maybe they know they aren't in it for the long run - or the shareholders dividend is more important.

 

[Z-Michigan]

This isn't the first kaboom with XM193. Wait and see what the cause is determined to be, but all the Colt bashing and worship is just silly. (FYI I don't own a Colt or plan to buy one, nor would I reject one if offered to me at a good price.)

 

[kwelz]

Actually if you were in the know at all Tirod, you would know that Colt has announced they are switching to Hammer forged barrels like they have been using from Colt Canada

 

[Caeser2001]

I don't buy into the Colt thing. I've handled hundreds of ARs, colt is just another player in the game. Nothing great about them.

it's not the part you can really see or feel that makes a colt a colt, it's the quality of the materials that meet the tdp set by the govn't for a soldier to carry in the field. had he had a rifle that didn't meet or exceed the tdp it could ended up a whole lot worse.

So, all those FN's in service don't meet the TDP and aren't milspec?

actually they do, other wise they wouldn't have a contract for the m16's they make, however colt holds the exclusive contract for m4's, as lmt has the contract for mk18 uppers.

 

[McBuck]

I've never seen amything like that before...


























































from a Mini-14

 

[wishin]

I liken Colt to Cadillac. Why drive a Caddy when a Chevy does the same thing for a lesser price. Lasts just as long, goes just as fast and reliability is comparable. However, the resale value is higher, as is with the Colt.

As for Milspec, the great benefit to Joe Civilian is presumed interchangeability between different makers of the same product.

 

[Tirod]

Thank you Azizza, you help make my point. Colt would rather use older less efficient methods of mass production until the cost benefit ratio is shown to work better.

Hammer forged barrels have been out for thirty years, are more accurate, and don't have to be lapped in because they don't have cut tooling or smeared button marks internally. Barrel life has been known to be superior for decades, with much higher round counts.

It admits that what they have been doing isn't the best. Not even as good as a foreign maker. Which reminds me, HK was hammer forging barrels in the '70's. Glad to see Colt catching up. Maybe they will move up from building Chevy's to something better.

ps, I didn't start this as a Colt bashing session, but if others are going to point out the problem areas, perhaps we could just start that as a thread. This was about an kaboom likely caused by known substandard ammunition.

 

[mljdeckard]

All machines fail eventually. I do however think that the difference between Colt and say, DPMS is GREATLY exaggerated in both directions. I think that the vast majority of shooters could go their whole lives with ANY AR with the brand names ground off and do all of their training, practicing, fighting and hunting, and never know the difference.

If a Colt is a Toyota, a DPMS might be a Mazda. Most people won't ever know the difference.

 

[taliv]

Colt would rather use older less efficient methods of mass production until the cost benefit ratio is shown to work better.

*sigh* you mean, the US Military? when the army wants to pay for HF barrels, i'm sure colt would oblige them.

It admits that what they have been doing isn't the best.

and despite the fact that every colt fanboy on the internet knows this is a fact, and has readily admitted it for years and in fact stated such in this very thread.... you still act as if it is a revelation to us all. hello? are you even listening? Colt is complying with a specification. it's that simple.

 

[atlanticfire]

Ok, so I made a mistake in my comment. I handled hundreds and shoot dozens. Including colts and full autos. Still not impressed! Just another AR. . . . .I'm not a person who buys into name brands.

 

[againstthagrane]

it is hilarious that all of the fan-boys are blaming the ammo, but if it was an olympic or DPMS they would be harping on about "that's what you get for buying a so and so branded AR."

to me, colt fans are the same kind of people who buy those stupid ed hardy t-shirts just because everyone is doing it.

colt= more overrated than creed and nickelback put together.

 

[Tirod]

I agree - military specifications may have a lot to do with the choice of barrel making.

As for every fanboy admitting Colt just makes things to spec, statements like "the gold standard" pop up which can be interpreted as undue adulation. I don't find some Colt enthusiasts in touch with the reality of the subject - but maybe that is just a come on.

One thing is for sure, as long as Colts demand a premium on the market, I suspect it will be because of undue appreciation beyond their actual worth. I could mention a few other makers with fans equally loyal and similarly appreciated. If anything, their behavior is the public perception of the marque - which is unfortunate.

They seem to love pointing out the kabooms.

 

[kwelz]

They command a premium because they actually build them right. Unlike DPMS, Bushmaster, Oly, Etc. And the price difference between Colt and most other branks is minimal right now.

 

[taliv]

As for every fanboy admitting Colt just makes things to spec, statements like "the gold standard" pop up which can be interpreted as undue adulation. I don't find some Colt enthusiasts in touch with the reality of the subject - but maybe that is just a come on.

I've no idea what you're trying to say here. interpret it however you like, but the "gold standard" just indicates money is fixed to a quantity of gold. much like "mil-spec", it's just a definition. it doesn't imply (of itself) that a particular currency is worth more or less than any other currency. just like 'mil-spec' doesn't imply something is better or worse than any other standard.

the rub of course, is your lack of some competing standard. perhaps if you were to propose some alternative standard, we could have a meaningful discussion. until you do, we are left with nothing better to do but argue about the reputation of brand names, a few of which are better than the spec, but most of which are not.

 

[TexasRifleman]

As for every fanboy admitting Colt just makes things to spec, statements like "the gold standard" pop up which can be interpreted as undue adulation. I don't find some Colt enthusiasts in touch with the reality of the subject - but maybe that is just a come on.

No, it's people like you that twist things around to make it sound bad. Because of the specs talked about earlier the Colt is, like it or not, the "reference standard". If it bugs you to use the term "gold standard" fine, but it's the same thing.

The Colt is the reference point since it is as close to the published standard as you can buy. Some are better than the standard, many are worse, but Colt is the reference point. That's all that means. It's not "adulation" as you put it, it's a simple fact.

You are really twisted up over this for some reason, why is that?

At the end of the day kabooms like this are nearly always ammo related, no matter what manufacturer made the rifle.

 

[RP88]

Colt is a gold-standard M4-style gun. The only thing to bash about it is that you can now find almost the same thing from 2-3 other makers for a bit cheaper and without loose handguards if you're lucky, or build your own to the same standard and save about $300. Either way, the only thing to bash Colt for is the fact that they are running themselves into the ground like idiots at the rate they're going. No innovation or anything, horrible customer service from what I was told, snobbishness and bias for contracting that will soon run out on them once technology and/or their consumers moves away from the AR platform, and a noted disregard for the civilian market, etc. But, their ARs are well worth the money.

I'm definitely agreeing with the notion that one should not use reject ammo. That seems like the culprit here.

 

[mgregg85]

colt has the most ardent fanboys.

I've gotta disagree with that, H&K fanboys are far worse.

 

[knights_armorer]

ive personally seem more than 1 carrier split just like that from excessive headspacing.

careful with the reamer smitty!

 

[dondavis3]

All rifles can break, Colts included...

But why are you even posting this?

Why the problem with Colts?

I have never posted something that was just trying to run down some brand or another - I just don't get this kind of post.

 

[zt77]

Everyone knows colt doesn't make the absolute best ar on the market

They do make ar's that comply with a good standard-milspec.
milspec may not mean mean #1 quality + #1 accuracy but it does mean it works good, shoots good, and will last a certain minimum number of rounds.

when you get down to it, there are a few brands that meet and a few that exceed the qualities of colts ar-15. what does that mean?
nothing, just that colt isn't the only good ar-15 on the market but they are a good ar-15.

 

[mljdeckard]

It means it USUALLY works good, shoots good, and will PROBABLY last a certain number of rounds. I've seen military issued rifles have about every failure (ok, not THIS failure,) you can imagine from old reconditioned A1s to fresh FNs. Mil-spec isn't something to strive for in manufacturing excellence.

Going back to the car analogy, it doesn't mean to say, "This car is good for 100,000 miles, but THIS car is good for 200,000 miles", if most drivers drive less than 20,000 in their lifetime.