Butt forward fast draw

[hmoos]

Wild Bill and Josey Wales carried their revolvers butt forward. I've watched those films over to see how it's done, but the action is too fast. Has anyone seen a video [You Tube] showing how it's done? I'm not into fast draw, although I was 60 years ago. In college, we used to pull the bullet and powder and shoot each other with primers. A non-smoker, I emptied the powder in the ash tray on my desk. One day a smoking friend visited and dropped a lit cigarette in my ash tray. When the smoke cleared, his arm and sweater were singed like a Christmas goose. I digress. I would like to know how that draw works.

 

[CraigC]

 

[hmoos]

Thanks. It looks simple in slow motion.

 

[jeepnik]

The BS about sweeping yourself or someone else when drawing from a crossdraw has proliferated as much as it has for the twist.

In fact, if you carry cross and practice with you off hand (you do practice off handed don't you?) you are doing a twist draw.

I see folks who insist that strong side is the "only" safe way. I usually ask them to demonstrate how they are going to draw with their off hand. Funny how many actually can't draw from that strong side holster unless it's worn very far forward of the mid point of the strong side.

 

[OYE]

If you are on horseback it's much easier to draw a long barrel revolver with a cross draw. Revolver on the left butt forward and draw with the right hand.
Easier on and off the horse as well.

Oh, by the way Josey Wales didn't carry his butt forward. OYE

 

[Stormin.40]

While not what dualist was demonstrating, and maybe not what you were referring to. I like the cross draw for my New Army, it is butt forward and allows plenty of room for the long barrel to clear not to mention more comfortable while seated.

I don't have a lot of experience so my opinion could be changed, it seems like a strong side holster could be difficult to clear with an 8" barrel. Maybe the butt forward strongside method helps with that, otherwise I don't see much of an advantage.

 

[Bigdog57]

In the old "Bat Masterson" TV show, Bat carries his short barreled nickeled M1873 in a cross draw rig high on his belt, left side front. I am considering that rig for my 1851 Navy Sheriff Model.
I haven't ever before seen the 'twist' performed, so it's a neat video.

 

[Crawdad1]

I just got finished reading the book "Great Gunfighters of the Kansas Cowtowns" by Miller and Shell and "The Vigilantes of Montana" by Dimsdale along with various other books about the Old West (but those books reference Miller's and Shell's book extensively) and throughout those books there is only a scant few instances where absolute speed in the draw is a factor deciding the gunfight.

 

[sltm1]

Aim slow in a hurry...Wyatt Earp

 

[g.willikers]

You notice that Mike sez the butt forward draw doesn't sweep one's own body if it's done correctly.
Emphasis on "done correctly."
The same is true with the other alternative ways to draw a handgun.
That's why the conventional draw is the only one considered safe at most ranges and competitions.
And it's just so embarassing to shoot oneself.

 

[BSA1]

That's why the conventional draw is the only one considered safe at most ranges and competitions.

Ignorance is often used in the name of safety.

Just like most gun laws.

And it's just so embarassing to shoot oneself.

Kind of hard to do unless you cock the hammer first on a single action revolver.

 

[Patocazador]

This may be pertinent to this discussion.

My friend, Pete, was at an unsupervised NFS gun range while a guy near him was practicing conventional 2-handed fast draws with factory ammo. He fumbled the draw with his left (weak) hand and tried to correct. Accidentally, he shot himself in the thigh.
It hit his femoral artery and the helicopter paramedics pronounced him dead as they left with his corpse.

There is a moral here.

 

[CraigC]

Ocala? I heard about that one and had been there only a few days before. Seen some scary things on that range.

 

[Old Fuff]

So far as a Single Action revolver is concerned it's obvious that any kind of draw is safe so long as the hammer is down and resting on an empty chamber, and you don't touch it until the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction.

Or you have a latter model Ruger with a transfer bar safety, in which an empty chamber is moot.

An examination of photographs taken during the middle 1850's forward to the later post Civil War period, conclusively show that butt-forward style of carry when it came to large/long barreled revolvers was the most popular way to go.

 

[Crawdad1]

Aim slow in a hurry...Wyatt Earp

No better words could describe it.

 

[Crawdad1]

the cavalry rig/draw was set up that way so as to allow the free use of your sword. you were supposed to rely upon your sword, cause you can't hit diddly from horseback, when crashing into other cavalry.

Maybe that is where the cross draw evolved. The main weapon of the cavalry was the sword which was always worn on the left to be drawn with the right hand. When the revolver became more available and more and more cavalrymen began to turn to it as his main weapon slowly replacing the sword, the sword being relegated to being slung alongside the saddle while on campaign, it was just natural for the cavalryman to carry his weapon on his left side butt forward so it could be 'drawn' cross the body similar to drawing a sword.

 

[expat_alaska]

Maybe that is where the cross draw evolved. The main weapon of the cavalry was the sword which was always worn on the left to be drawn with the right hand.

In the early years of The War Of Northern Aggression, Napoleonic tactics were used exclusively on both sides. The sword/saber was drawn and used as a rallying tactic to urge the troops on in battle. At that period, the War was expected to not last very long, hence the bravado. When the sword was deemed less than valuable against rifled muskets, it was not used much afterward. Maybe then the respective cavalries wised up.

When the revolver became more available and more and more cavalrymen began to turn to it as his main weapon slowly replacing the sword, the sword being relegated to being slung alongside the saddle while on campaign, it was just natural for the cavalryman to carry his weapon on his left side butt forward so it could be 'drawn' cross the body similar to drawing a sword.

Before the "belt" pistol (1851/1860/1861) was popular with the guerilla forces, the main pistols used by cavalry on both sides were large pommel mounted "horse pistols", usually .44 Dragoons.

Being that cavalry mounted troopers on saddles needed a speedy access to a belt pistol, cross-draw/forward-facing-butt pistols were an absolute necessity.

Just my $.02 worth.

 

[Patocazador]

Ocala? I heard about that one and had been there only a few days before. Seen some scary things on that range.

That's the place.
It turned out that the fast-draw fellow was just in from Tennessee to take over the management of a plant in Ocala that Pete was working at. Without knowing it, he watched his almost future boss kill himself accidentally.

 

[Kaeto]

In the early years of The War Of Northern Aggression, Napoleonic tactics were used exclusively on both sides. The sword/saber was drawn and used as a rallying tactic to urge the troops on in battle. At that period, the War was expected to not last very long, hence the bravado. When the sword was deemed less than valuable against rifled muskets, it was not used much afterward. Maybe then the respective cavalries wised up.



Before the "belt" pistol (1851/1860/1861) was popular with the guerilla forces, the main pistols used by cavalry on both sides were large pommel mounted "horse pistols", usually .44 Dragoons.

Being that cavalry mounted troopers on saddles needed a speedy access to a belt pistol, cross-draw/forward-facing-butt pistols were an absolute necessity.

Just my $.02 worth.

The Confederate cavalry troopers used a lot of sawed off shotguns as their weapon instead of pistols.

 

[CraigC]

I have no idea why anyone would bother to practice it today.

Because it's fast. It carries like a crossdraw, which works much better for some purposes. It also makes the pistol quickly accessible with the weak hand.

 

[Crawdad1]

With organized cavalry we can't fully discount the sword during the War but irregular troops definitely took to revolvers with the opposing Federal cavalry screaming for revolvers to counteract their firepower. The shotgun as a long arms were used by irregular forces but it was the revolver sited over and over again in Brownlee's excellent book, "The Grey Ghosts of the Confederacy" and again in Barton's "Three years with Quantrill" and Williamson's "Mosby's Rangers" that changed everything.

And I would venture to guess that the cross draw for the left side with the butt forward is a natural evolution. Now from the right side, butt forward, I don't know but it seems kind of awkward to me.

 

[OYE]

We carry the Remingtons with the 8 in. barrel on horseback often during the summer. Getting on and off the horse, it's much easier to have the holster on the left side ( or whichever side you are mounting the horse from). It just catches on the saddlebags or bedroll or coat when you step over the horse if you don't. When you are out in the field getting on and off several times a day it's a big deal. We all carry them that way around here on horseback. A 6 inch or shorter pistol it doesn't matter much which side.
A guess if you had a saber then you put it on the left side as it was the worst of 2 evils. Course if you are carrying a saber there has to be some agreement the enemy will carry one also. Since the plains Indians wouldn't buy into saber fights they eventually went away. Just one of those things that get lost over time why people did things.

Kind of like finding a lucky horseshoe. These days no one knows why it's lucky unless you've been far from home on horseback and throw a shoe and happen to find one. Means you can nail it on and you don't have to walk and your horse still has a foot when you get there. It's the best luck there is.
OYE

 

[Noz]

The twist draw only comes into it's own when you are carrying a long barrel pistol on a high belt.
It is a more natural movement than a "regular" straight draw.

 

[jeepnik]

One of the holsters I use for CCW, with my .45 colt Blackhawk is a custom cross draw. But it rides fairly high, almost about where a shoulder holster would ride. It breaks on the rear side to facilitate a smoother & easier draw.

When drawing with the off hand when it clears the holster you complete the draw in what is a twist draw.

With a covering garment it conceals very well. It's fast as you don't have to try and clear the belt line as one would with an IWB.

As to gunfights in the old west, they were just like killing at any other time in history. Either by stealth or force of numbers. I'm sure one could find an instance where two fellows squared off against each other. But they were likely drunk at the time.

 

[perldog007]

The BS about sweeping yourself or someone else when drawing from a crossdraw has proliferated as much as it has for the twist.

In fact, if you carry cross and practice with you off hand (you do practice off handed don't you?) you are doing a twist draw.

I see folks who insist that strong side is the "only" safe way. I usually ask them to demonstrate how they are going to draw with their off hand. Funny how many actually can't draw from that strong side holster unless it's worn very far forward of the mid point of the strong side.

AMEN! When my boss finally convinced my idealistic young butt that he would fire me for showing up to a post unarmed, I wore a holster like that fat guy in "Choir Boys" did. Left handed on right hip but forward. I could draw with either hand. This was vetoed quickly by my boss who felt you only should draw with your strong hand, butt rearward from a Jordan holster or similar.

Now after losing a hundred, I can cross draw from a regulation full flap holster worn butt forward on the point of the hipbone to the cylinder. Either side or both at once. Drawing two with a twist is easier for me than cross drawing two at once, just in case I ever get into show business.

All due respect to Mike in the video, i don't think he's going to have an easy time with a cross draw from that belt position unless his arms are long and he is limber. He is about the size I was two years ago. Not saying I would try the man, he can shoot.

When I was a doing security work I was pegged as a tackleberry type for regularly practicing reaching everything I carried on my belt with either hand.

Getting into BP, I can't tell you how many times I drew, sprung back, eased up, drew and readied to cock, drew cocked and busted a cap only, before I loaded the first chamber.

Practice, Practice, and more practice gives you a safe draw, don't try to be fast, go as slow as you can move and get smooth. That puppy will instantly appear in your hand when needed and it will be a surprise to whomever is present. Do practice with your weak hand, it could prevent much if you ever injured your strong hand and had to reholster one handed weak handed. Much more likely for some of us than that blaze of glory where you have to fight on after losing use of your strong hand....

P.S. when forty inch waistlines became common among cops, officer survival types taught the injured officer drill reaching around BEHIND your back with the weak hand to get to the strong side holster....