Buying first AR- Get the M-4 type or the M-16 type?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by .455_Hunter, Aug 15, 2007.

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  1. hags

    hags Member

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    Go with the M4gery, most 20" barrels aren't chrome lined. How much will you be shooting out past say 300 yards? The carbine will get you there no problem.
    Stay away from the A2 upper receivers. You will, if you want to evolve, upgrade your optics. Get the detachable handle, once you try an Eotech or Aimpoint you'll have to have one.
    Just my opinion, do what makes you happy.
     
  2. rkh

    rkh member

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    You mean like an AK, or an AR-18? Truly inferior rifles, them. :rolleyes:

    My LWRC is the finest rifle I own, and by all accounts, HK-416s are just as nice.

    Edit:

    Here's a quote from the Armalite article:
    There is no debate. None. I can't believe they even said that.
     
  3. GunTech

    GunTech Member

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    The moving mass in a piston actuated rifle effects accuracy, and each round fired torques the barrel at the gas port. Direct gas action rifles like the M16 don't have this issue. They can be built lighter, and there is no distortion of the barrel during operations.

    Better? No. But the direct gas action contributes to better accuracy. AK-47, 5 MOA. M16, 2 MOA.

    'nuff said.
     
  4. tommytrauma

    tommytrauma Member

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    A lot of (most?) carbine instructors are teaching a squared up stance for carbine shooting instead of the more traditional bladed stance. Lends itself to more effective firing on the move, makes for nice transitions, offers the full face of any body armor to the threat area instead of the less protected side, etc. A A2 stock is an awfully long length of pull in this stance, especially with armor or a LBV.

    I'm not big on the M4 style stocks though, I prefer something more robust. The Sully stock offers an extremely robust solution, with a LOP the same as a M4 on the second detent. Works great for me.

    Sully next to an A2 length cav arms;
    slr_cav.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2007
  5. illspirit

    illspirit Member

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    I'd say go for the M4gery. If you end up hating the regular collapsible stock, there's a bunch of after-market models which snap right onto the buffer tube.
     
  6. rkh

    rkh member

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    I agree, to a point. If you plan on shooting the rifle competitively in 600 yard NRA matches, then the DI system might make sense. I assumed that if the OP was looking for competition rifle, he wouldn't be considering a carbine-length barrel.

    Like many people, I don't have access to a range longer than 200 yards. Although I wish I had a 1000 yard range at my disposal, I don't think anyone, regardless of his or her state of residence, would be legally justified in taking a "defensive" shot at 200 yards or more. Given that the loss of accuracy at that 200 yards is negligible with a well constructed piston AR, I think the piston ARs are superior practical weapons, and further serve to encourage user training by making maintenance and cleaning a far less onerous task.

    Seeing as virtually every other autoloading rifle ever made (before and after the stoner system appeared) has utilized a piston system, these complaints relating to a reciprocating mass above the barrel are not particularly meaningful.
     
  7. zerosignal

    zerosignal Member

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    Sorry, but the "piston causes innaccuracy" claim is just utter nonsense.

    The M14 has been used for YEARS as a match-grade service rifle.

    Most of the innaccurate AK-47's are that way because of loose tolerances, a sheet-metal receiver, and crappy ammunition. It has nothing to do with the gas piston. Arsenal Inc. AK's with tight tolerances are known to shoot 1 MOA all day long with quality ammo.
     
  8. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    You could split the difference and get a midlength upper (instead of carbine length) with a 16" barrel.

    Whatever you do get, I'd recommend a flattop upper with either a detachable carry handle, or something like Rock River's "Tactical Carry Handle."

    [​IMG]
     
  9. GunTech

    GunTech Member

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    And service match is now totally dominated by th AR-15/M-16. M14/M1As can't compete.

    There have been several tests of piston modified ARs vs direct gas action, and the piston guns demonstarted reduced accuracy (technically precision -increased mean distribution of hits)
     
  10. hags

    hags Member

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    I think the novelty of the piston action on ARs is wearing thin.
    It's a dead issue except for those who sell or own them.
     
  11. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    Fourty years and still chugging along.
    My impression is the M16 doesn't need a new gas system and I doubt the Military will want the logistic nightmare of conversion on a general scale.
    Special Ops will still get what they want, they are TDA and if a new gas system makes those guys all warm and fuzzy, so be it.
     
  12. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    Stag is my only option

    Thanks for your replies.

    I know there are many quality AR platform manufactures out there right now, but Stag is the only one catering to my lefty needs. I shot enough rounds out of right handed M16s and M4s in the service to know that if I am going to spend $800-$1000 on AR type rifle, its going to be left handed. I did not really enjoy the shower of hot brass and particles that goes with an issue M-4 cycling in front of my nose, even with the so called deflector.

    Stag's full size specs are as follows-

    Stag-15L Model 4L Pre-ban
    Caliber...5.56 Nato Chamber
    Upper.....Forged and Mil Spec.
    Sights.....Detachable Carry Handle/Front Post
    Barrel.....20" 1/9 Twist (NOT CHROMED)
    Selector...Ambi
    Magazine...20 Round
    Stock......A2 Buttstock


    Here are the specs for the carbines-

    Stag-15L Model 1L Pre-ban (Classic M-4 type with fixed front site)
    Caliber...5.56 Nato Chamber
    Upper.....Forged and Mil Spec.
    Sights.....Detachable Carry Handle/Front Post
    Barrel.....16" Chrome Lined 1/9 Twist
    Selector...Ambi
    Magazine...30 Round
    Stock......6 Position Collapsible

    Stag-15L Model 3L Pre-ban (New M-4 syle with no sights at all, just Picatinny rails front and back)
    Caliber...5.56 Nato Chamber
    Upper.....Forged and Mil Spec.
    Sights.....None
    Barrel.....16" Chrome Lined 1/9 Twist
    Selector...Ambi
    Magazine...30 Round
    Stock......6 Position Collapsible


    What are the advantages/disadvantages to a chrome bore?
    How does the fixed front sight interfere with the field-of-view on scopes/red dot type optics with the 16" and 20" versions?

    I have also learned that Stag will be coming out with a heavy barrel varmint type sporter next year- very interesting!

    Please comment.

    Thanks,

    Hunter
     
  13. RockyMtnTactical

    RockyMtnTactical Member

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    There is no reason not to chrome line your chrome moly barrel if your number one concern is reliability.

    The 5.56/.223Rem cases are not tapered at all so the case makes contact with the chamber for much of the feeding and extracting. That is why it is so imperative that your chamber stays clear of corrosion, rust, and pitting. This was a lesson that was quickly learned by the military when it rushed the M-16 into service in Vietnam.

    William Davis, Former Chief, Small Arms Branch recalled that, “The principle problem was a failure to chrome plate the chamber. That was the cause of the serious malfunctions that caused the controversy in Vietnam.”

    Chrome will also make the chamber more “slick” than steel, which will enhance feeding and extracting.

    Chrome lining increases the life of your barrel. It will ease cleaning and maintenance as well.

    The one downside to chrome is an ever so slight decrease in accuracy. This difference in accuracy is practically unnoticeable and will not be missed in a defensive weapon.
     
  14. tommytrauma

    tommytrauma Member

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    It's an AR, the Lego® of the rifle world. You can configure your Stag any way you want to.
     
  15. GunTech

    GunTech Member

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    RockyMtn Tacticall is 100% right. The Army already knew about chrome chambers from the pacific theater of operations in WWII. Tghe 30-06 alsop has very little taper.

    FWIW, the AK has a chromed bore too. The original M16 did not have the chrome chamber, and MacNamara's wonder boys, sensing army reluctance to the M16 declared that if the rifle needed a chrom bore, Stoner would have put one in there. The first m16 in the field were issues without the chrome chamber and other minor changes the Army called for. The later addition of the chrome chamber solved a lot of reloiability problem, but everyone seems to have conveniantly forgotten the fact that the army requested the chrom chamber well before the M16 was ever issued to troops.
     
  16. KC&97TA

    KC&97TA Member

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    AR's are not LEGO's ... think this and you'll end up with a pile of crap parts Buy the entire rifle or buy all the parts for a Quality Manufacture. It's something you hold in your hands and put your face on that goes BOOM, pay the price to step in the ring with the big boys and get a good gun, or you'll be here or ARF.com looking for gunsmithing advise and unhappy.

    a 16" barrel on M885 5.56mm has 2970fps, a 20" barrel has 3110fps. Once you get out to 600m+ they this is a major factor, for most they couldn't shoot 600m to save thier life, so it isn't that big of deal to most.

    I'll tell you that an M4 will hit point target just as well at 600m as a A4 will. A M16M4 with ACOG or RCO will hit at 750m, but the M16A4 will push past that 800m mark with a RCO and a savvy shooter.

    The M4 is the new Trend, it's like when Smokey and the Bandit came out, everyone wanted a Black Trans Am. For Civilian purposes, it's just a toy, for wageing war; when you have to carry a rifle every day for 7 months to a year strait, the 4" off the barrel and 6" off the stock to have a 29" rifle instead of a 39" rifle add up to make life alot easier, to clear buildings and get in and out of hummers, it's alot easier.

    For Competionion shooting, you want a National Match Upper, Go with Rock River Arms or Fulton Armory. Personally I have a RRA Entry Tactical, it's been a 100% champion and it's all geared out the way my issued rifle is. I also have a RRA National Match that holds Sub-MOA at 1000 yards, yes a 5 shot 7-5/8" group at 1000 yards.

    for controversy in Vietnam... how about crappy ammo, primers being set off by inertia, no forward assist, no brass deflectory, shooting on full auto and burning out barrels, no issued cleaning kit carried on the weapon, improper maintence of weapons or no maintence of weapons; the list goes on. The M16 has changed drastically.
     
  17. vanfunk

    vanfunk Member

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    Cosmetically, the Armalite M15A2 rifle is very similar to the M16A2 service rifle. However, many of the similarities are only skin deep, if it matters to you. Armalite uses 4140 barrel steel instead of a chrome-moly-vanadium alloy. Not a big difference (RRA and others use it too), but a difference nonetheless. The HBAR barrel profile adds a pound of weight to the rifle, as compared to the M16A2. Also, the 1/9" twist of the Armalite won't stabilize the 77 grain rounds (and possibly the 75's) that have gained favor recently. Armalite attaches their front sight bases with screws, not taper pins, which makes for easy adjustability but provides nowhere near as strong a connection to the barrel. The bolts are not individually proofed, magnafluxed and shot peened as are their .mil counterparts.

    The Armalite is a good rifle, to be sure, and certainly attains the "look" of the M16A2. It's just helpful (IMO) to know all the facts before committing to a purchase.


    Colt still makes the M16A4, in addition to the M4:

    HTH,
    vanfunk
     
  18. tommytrauma

    tommytrauma Member

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    You can actually manage to swap out buttstocks without ending up with a frankengun, as hard as that might be to believe.

    People tend to swing from one extreme to another. The extreme of frankenguns is buying each spring, detent, etc seperately and as cheaply as possible, leading to the nightmares you describe. However, saying that one must buy a factory configuration weapon and not modify it would be the opposite extreme on the same subject.

    As you point out, using quality parts is a necessaty. However, the OP is in no way confined to the configurations offered as factory setups from Stag. ARs are easy to modify without compromising reliability, as long as you take the time to do it right. Swapping a A2 buttstock for an M4 is a 10 minute job. The most time consuming part of replacing a detachable carrying handle with an optic is the time it takes to zero. I regularly switch back and forth from a 16" upper and a 20" upper with no issues whatsoever. Legos®.

    Don't assume legos equal frankenguns.

    I won't make fun of your apostrophe if you don't make fun of my spelling.
     
  19. triage1998

    triage1998 Member

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    anybody say get both yet?:evil:


    I really couldn't decide. I first got the Bushmaster M4. Then I picked up the CMMG 20" Goverment profile. Then just got a great deal on the Colt 6920 the other day. I still can't decide which I like better.

    I am no help at all:cool:

    I just wanted to post a picture :)





    62dhqv7.jpg
     
  20. otomik

    otomik Member

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    I don't believe it. what about commercial or milspec receiver extension tube? yes, even changing the buttstock requires arcane knowledge.

    can we have a discussion about ARs without someone bringing up the name Robert McNamara. Go watch Fog of War and tell me he isn't still a genius.
     
  21. Rokman

    Rokman Member

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    I like the feel of the M4 (which is my first), but you need to just try them out and see what fits you best. My next AR15 will probably be a 20" model in a varmint style package.
     
  22. Prdatr

    Prdatr Member

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    Dusey,

    Your not fat, your head is just too little for your body.
     
  23. glockman19

    glockman19 Member

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    My first AR wa the Stag model #4. My Second was the Stag Model #2.

    They are both lots of fun to shoot.

    I'd make the same decision again. Get the model #4 you can always buy another. I got mine from www.lanworldinc.com and got a great price. Chris is very knoweledgable and will take all the time you need discussing the differences.

    Stag Model #2 $865

    Stag Model #4 $910
     
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