C&R License worth it?

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Mulliga

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I'm looking to buy some more rifles mainly for target shooting and self-defense. Is getting the C&R (Curio and Relics) license worth it? I'm not a collector or anything - I just want combat-worthy firearms. Are there any decent C&R weapons that fire modern calibers?
 
Since the C&R only costs $30 every three years, it is worth it even if you only buy one gun every three years. Consider this, I can buy a CZ-52 for $89 + shipping from SOG or I can pay $155 + tax for one at a gunshow. I can buy a nice Yugo SKS for $89 shipped from AIM or I can buy one in the same condition for $150-200 at a gunshow. You will probably get your money back on the first gun you buy if you shop around and get a bargin.

There are many guns that fire modern ammo. Most of the SKSs are C&Rs and they fire the 7.62x39mm (AK-47 round). This may be the least expensive rifle cartridge you can buy. I bought 1000 rounds of it for $72 at the last gunshow. There are 9mm, .45acp, .38spl, .22lr, .380acp, .32acp and many others that can be had for very reasonable amounts.

If you do get a C&R, you don't have to be a collecter, you can find plenty of guns that will make good shooters for not a lot of money.
 
Ditto what albanian said.

Get your C&R and send a copy off to all the distributors like SOG, Century and AIM, and get good junk mail for a change. :D
 
There are a lot of great old military guns on the market now. As noted above, you re-coup your thirty bucks (probably) on your first buy. Right now you can get Swiss K-31's and Yuko SKS's very cheap. They are great guns, in good shape.

And, just like a kid at xmas, you wait, nose-to-window for the Big Brown Truck to drop of the goodies! Great fun!

taa, cs:D
 
I've been wondering the same thing...I've read that there are discounts for C&R holders at both midway and brownells, regardless of whether you're buying merchandise for the C&R guns or something else.

I know that you're supposed to have a special book in which you record the guns you receive and sell/trade. Can others confirm this?

Are there good references for reading about the paperwork required?
 
Don't forget, with a C&R license, you also get the dealer discount at Brownell's. That can save you HUGE money, and it has saved me about 6 times the price of the license already.

This is a good resource for any information you may want on it:

http://www.cruffler.com/
 
Bacchus
I know that you're supposed to have a special book in which you record the guns you receive and sell/trade. Can others confirm this?

Yes, you need to keep a bound book of your C&R purchases. It doesn't really even have to be a "bound book" it just needs to be a paper record of the C&R guns you buy and sell while you have the license. Its a simple requirement and no reason to prevent you from getting your C&R.
 
For the uses you stated? Probably not.

Yes, it is true you get some discounts, but not all the products Brownells or Midway sell carry any discount, and their sales products are the same price either way, usually. You also have some record keeping requirements, and can be spot inspected by ATF., although it happens rarely.

For me it has been well worth it, but I have a collection of various M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M1911A1, and Mausers.

The most suitable firearms for target shooting and self defense aren't typically C&R. Target shooting usually means a scoped bolt action or an AR. Self defense is usually a shotgun or AR. Neither category would ordinarily have a C&R fireamr as first choice.

But, it's a free country and it's only $30. The most useful information source I found is the C&R forum at www.milsurpshooter.net. I use the Excel spreadsheet format they have their for my Bound Book.
 
And, just like a kid at xmas, you wait, nose-to-window for the Big Brown Truck to drop of the goodies! Great fun!

This is sooo true!:D One of the best things about a C&R is that the guns are delivered to your door. It is so cool to wait for the UPS guy, it is almost like X-mas! I have grown to actually like cleaning my guns when I first get them. It may sound strage because I don't like cleaning them after I shoot but for the first time, it is like meeting a new girl. Everything is new and exciting and I can't wait to see what kind of wood is under the muck. It is like restoring a old car or something but to a lesser extant because most of the time everything works it just needs to be cleaned up and oiled.

I got a Star B that was OK when I got it but once I took it apart and cleaned the small pieces, it clicked and snapped like a new gun (I mean the action).
 
A co-worker recently inquired about membership at a range I'm a member of of which I forwarded the necessary information. While discussing the club I had mentioed that it would be a great idea if he go for a C&R and also forwarded that info to him. I had informed him of the incredible benefits of the C&R, in particular the special dealer pricing from Brownells and Midway he would receive which really got his attention as he reloads. Notified of the special pricing that can be deciphered from their catalog, etc.

a couple of days go by and he mentions that he his looking for a scope for a new black powder rifle he is getting. The scope he is looking for is the Nikon 2.5-10X50 Monarch Gold and asked me to look up some pricing for it. He had seen it at Cabela's for $600. I went to look for it at SWFA, Bear Basin, and Bruno's, my regular lineup for scopes. Apparently, the scope is still relatively new and they, usually slightly lower than Cabela's, were all also selling for $600. I went to Midway's site with my C&R sign-on and found the scope for $550. If he gets the C&R, the licensing fee will have paid for itself on this one purchase.

I, myself, had my C&R pay for itself on my very first purchase of a factory SIG sight pusher from Brownells.
 
Here's a question, how would a C&R license work in a retarded backwards state such as California when it comes to aquiring some older handguns certain to not be on the "approval list"?


Notably things like older S&W revolvers, a model 1917 45ACP wheel gun would be an example but what about things like a Pre27 5screw?


I ask because I'm getting fed up with waiting for finer examples of such guns to show up on the consignment shelves here in local gunshops. The dealers themselves can't take possesion of a gun from out of state and then turn around to resell it to me because it's not on the approval list. But I can't help but wonder if I could take delivery of something that meets the C&R requirements in so much as age of the handgun, take possesion of it as a dealer with no intent to resell it.
 
I don't know all the rules regarding how you can get C&R handguns here in California, but I do know you can not get a C&R handgun delivered to your door in California because it's concealable :( . For Californians, the C&R license helps out more for rifles.

Mulliga If I didn't already have a C&R license, I'd get it just to get one of those Yugo SKS's available now. The mark-ups at the gunshops in my area are too much and the condition can't even come close to what I can find online. It pays for itself in one purchase, plus you can walk around bragging about your Type 03 FFL :cool: .
 
SOG?

Does SOG stand for something? I've been searching for them and can't find a website, phone number, address or anything... Just more topics about how people say they've ordered their SKS (or whatever) from SOG.
 
It is definitely NOT worth it, because your bank account will eventually become depleted from all the purchases. :D

Seriously, if you're not into collecting, C&R might not be beneficial to you. However, IMHO, you can get some good, bolt action shooters that could meet your need for target shooting.
 
Another question about the requirements to keep records:

I took a look at the sample bound book at cruffler and noticed that there is a section for serial number of the guns received and section for info if you sell it to someone else.

If a C&R holder receives a gun (rifle, handgun, whatever) and logs it in his/her book, then is it possible to trade it or sell it later face to face without getting the new owner's info?

I know that a C&R is not a license to sell, but it seems that most people might like to trade off a gun or two.
 
If a C&R holder receives a gun (rifle, handgun, whatever) and logs it in his/her book, then is it possible to trade it or sell it later face to face without getting the new owner's info?

In a word: no.

--
Mike
 
Thanks for all the responses, guys. I'm thinking of ordering from SOG if/when I get my C&R.

I'm thinking of getting a:

Yugo SKS (practically all crufflers get this, I suppose)
A Mosin Nagant M44 Carbine
Enfield Jungle Carbine or Enfield MKIII
A .22 LR training rifle

Any recommendations/comments on these guns? Thanks in advance.
 
quote: If a C&R holder receives a gun (rifle, handgun, whatever) and logs it in his/her book, then is it possible to trade it or sell it later face to face without getting the new owner's info? In a word: no.

So, no private sale (face 2 face) such as you can do without a C&R? Is it such that if you buy a gun with your C&R, you must sell/trade it the same way, and if you buy a gun not using your C&R, you can sell/trade it via private sale?
 
You can sell it, you just have to get the new owner's info.

Mulliga Your list looks fine, but I prefer the No. 4 Enfields (better sights IMHO) and the M38 Mosin Nagants (same rifle, but without the useless-to-me bayonet) ;) . Good luck.
 
Something to keep in mind...

Quote:
‘Engaging’ Traps More Collectors

By Neal Knox

WASHINGTON, D.C. (Oct. 20) – Eight St. Louis area collectors were indicted Sept. 28 for “engaging in the gun business†without a Federal Firearms License. They are the latest victims in the 40-year battle over the fuzzy definition of who must have an FFL.

Vaguely defined “unlicensed dealing†carries more severe punishment than some willful violations by licensed dealers – plus the potential forfeiture of every gun in a collection, and the loss of gun ownership rights, firearms hunting rights, and often even voting rights – for life.

In addition to the ruinous legal costs of fighting a felony offense punishable by up to five years imprisonment and $250,000 fine, the St. Louis collectors – five of them 60 to 79 years old – have had 572 firearms seized.

Their guns were already the subjects of civil forfeiture suits. And the criminal indictments also demand their forfeiture – including antiques which are not subject to the Gun Control Act.

The grand jury also indicted a licensed dealer for allegedly selling at gun shows without maintaining required records or conducting background checks – something clearly forbidden in BATF instructions, but only as a misdemeanor punishable by up to one year imprisonment and/or $100,000 fine.

The nine indictments are the result of a year-long BATF investigation in which undercover agents traveled to gun shows in other states to buy and sell guns.

The eight collectors are in a Catch-22. They do not qualify for an FFL under the laws and regulations imposed during the Clinton Administration, which upped the $10 annual license to $500 and required licensees to have a locally sanctioned business with special security systems and regular hours.

Those changes succeeded in meeting President Clinton’s stated goal of reducing the number of dealers – which dropped from about 260,000 to less than 60,000.

Because of those more stringent rules for obtaining a license, the gray area between buying and selling guns as a hobby, and not for “livelihood and profit,†has broadened.

James Martin, lawyer for one of the indicted men, 69-year-old Caesar Gaglio, told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch his client is a collector who did not need a license for the relatively few guns he sold. BATF had purchased seven guns from him at gun shows over a five month period. At a later show agents observed him at a table “with about 10 handguns and six long guns for sale.â€

Martin said Gaglio “has a large personal collection and he has been retired. He has sufficient income from his pension and investments to support himself.†He was not trying to make his “livelihood†from gun sales, Martin said. The law exempts from the license requirement anyone who “makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement for a personal collection or for a hobby …â€

In the raid on another indicted man, Elmer Pigg, 79, agents seized 138 guns and “$18,770 … derived from illicit gun sales,†according to BATF.

The BATF and its predecessors have always opposed any objective standard of what constitutes an “illicit gun sale†– as opposed to unlicensed buying and selling for the purpose of enhancing a personal collection, which is specifically authorized in the law.

At the 1968 NRA convention in Boston, officials from BATF’s predecessor, the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Unit of the Internal Revenue Service, discussed what constituted “engaging in the firearms business†at a crowded NRA Gun Collectors Committee Meeting.

The Midwest Region ATTU director considered the dividing line six gun sales in a year. The head of Boston ATTU contended two sales made a person a dealer. (That guy later charged a Fall River, Mass. memorial group with failure to register the 16-inch guns on the Battleship Massachusetts.)

Significantly, the ATTU official from Washington declined to give an objective definition, saying “dealing†should be decided on a case-by-case basis.

In 1979, while I was NRA-ILA Director, we copied the McClure-Volkmer bill’s definition of “engaging in business†directly from a landmark court case. At BATF’s insistence, that definition was fuzzed before the remnants of the bill passed in 1986.

What so often happens in cases of “unlicensed dealing†is that the accused cannot afford the legal costs to fight the case, and agrees to a single felony offense – losing all gun ownership rights – and forfeiting many thousands of dollars worth of guns. Those cases “make law,†further encouraging BATF.

The St. Louis indictments are the type of precedent-setting cases that caused us to create the NRA Firearms Civil Rights Legal Defense Fund in 1978 – which I hope will assist these cases.

---

To receive Neal Knox’s bi-monthly newsletter, send a contribution in any amount to The Firearms Coalition, P.O. Box 3313, Manassas, VA 20108. For current news, visit http:/www.NealKnox.com. You can read up-to-date Knox Reports at www.ShotgunNews.com.
 
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