C&R FFL License

[Tabequache]

My Curio and Relic FFL license arrived yesterday. It took the BATF less than 30 days to process. Looking forward to exploring the C&R universe, though I'm going to take it slowly. I currently have about 8 handguns and/or rifles that qualify. If anyone has experience as a C&R license holder, I would appreciate some tips. Thanks.

 

[yugorpk]

Guns that you owned prior to acquiring your license do not need to be entered into your books. You can if you want I suppose but its not necessary. I have one and really never use it unless I travel out of state and see something I want at a shop IF they will accept a C&R. Many won't. Also my state doesn't allow direct shipments to C&R any more. Kind of useless for me but I keep it anyway.

 

[F-111 John]

Just a stupid question: If you ever get audited by the ATF, how do you prove that some of your collection was owned prior to receiving a C&R license and don't need to be on your books?

 

[Red Wind]

If you have the receipt for the C&R firearm acquired before you received the FFL 03, the date on the receipt will be your proof.

 

[m0par]

First tip, if you haven't already, check this out: http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/CurioAndRelicDiscounters

(Brownells accepts C&R for dealer pricing, and is still my go-to supplier, but as of late even their dealer pricing has crept up to the point that many things can be found cheaper elsewhere. I'll still use them if the price is close though, due to excellent customer service I've had with them in the past.)

Be prepared to find a lot of people and FFLs who have no idea what a C&R 03 FFL is and have no desire to become informed.

Slim pickings for new arrivals from overseas, and most of the stuff imported for some time now comes with HUGE import marking billboards--majorly disappointing as far as collecting/value, IMO.

 

[F-111 John]

If you have the receipt for the C&R firearm acquired before you received the FFL 03, the date on the receipt will be your proof.

Obviously, but if you don't have a dated receipt? I don't have receipts for several of the guns in my collection. I live in Michigan, so the handguns also have State of Michigan registrations, but the long guns do not.

 

[joem1945]

I use mine regularly if I see something I want. Get subscriptions to Gun News and a few others. Check the web sites of importers for stuff coming in. Look at gun auction sites for C&R firearms and sign up to bid if you like. If your a collector it's handy to have them shipped to your door. Make several copies BEFORE YOU SIGN YOUR ORIGINAL. Sign and send those in for your purchase.

 

[Red Wind]

Obviously, F-111 John, if you have no long gun receipt for your C&R firearm you have no way to prove it. However, the ATF is not the Gestapo.

In my 10 years having the FFL 03, the agents have been courteous and helpful. I'm sure they'll accept your word for it.

 

[tark]

I've had my C&R license for almost a quarter century. Never regretted it. It is worth its weight in gold if you like old guns.

mOpar's point #3 in his post sums up the biggest problem you will face. Sometimes, the dealers who do recognize it will still insist you fill out a 4473, which isn't necessary, but you can't talk them out of it! Then there are the ones who insist that a gun has to be on the list to be a C&R. NO! The list is a list of exceptions to the fifty year rule.

By the way, machine guns ARE included as curio and relics. Of course all NFA rules must be followed when transferring them.

I have found that most of the big stores (Cabela's, Gander Mountain and Bass Pro Shops,) recognize the license. I was travelling from Illinois to California one year and spotted a beautiful 1891 Argentine Mauser in the Cabela's store in Sidney, Nebraska. I signed a copy of my C&R, paid for the gun, and walked out with it, right then and there, no 4473, no background check. Whole thing took ten minutes.

Ya gotta love it.

 

[Tabequache]

Thanks for all your comments. Very helpful.

 

[evan price]

Any firearm over fifty years old is automatically c&r, it didn't need to be listed in the atf c&r registry. There are lots of fine old shooting irons out there that fall under that and more every day. You don't need to just buy military guns.

 

[C5rider]

Then there are the ones who insist that a gun has to be on the list to be a C&R. NO! The list is a list of exceptions to the fifty year rule.

So, lemme get this straight...

More for clarification for me (and others who may not know), a Ruger Blackhawk or Single-Six three-screw manufactured before 1966 is automatically C&R eligible?

I'll have to admit (and sorry to all those guys out there that already knew), that I never thought of a C&R like that. Figured it was for K98s, Mosins and whatnot.

Hmmm?

 

[AZAndy]

So, lemme get this straight...

More for clarification for me (and others who may not know), a Ruger Blackhawk or Single-Six three-screw manufactured before 1966 is automatically C&R eligible?

I'll have to admit (and sorry to all those guys out there that already knew), that I never thought of a C&R like that. Figured it was for K98s, Mosins and whatnot.

Hmmm?

Yes. Don't take my word for it, here's the ATF saying exactly that.

 

[Speedo66]

I use mine regularly if I see something I want. Get subscriptions to Gun News and a few others. Check the web sites of importers for stuff coming in. Look at gun auction sites for C&R firearms and sign up to bid if you like. If your a collector it's handy to have them shipped to your door. Make several copies BEFORE YOU SIGN YOUR ORIGINAL. Sign and send those in for your purchase.

Why would you ever sign your original copy?

 

[bonza]

I use my C&R FFL only on the odd occasion for buying firearms, as my interest lies mainly with antiques (pre 1899) which are exempt anyway. However, my C&R allows me to have a dealer account at some of the shooting supplies companies (Grafs is my favorite), so the renewal fee pays for itself multiple times in the savings I receive.

 

[dogtown tom]

joem1945....Make several copies BEFORE YOU SIGN YOUR ORIGINAL....

NEVER sign the original!
Only sign copies.

 

[evan price]

C5rider:
Absolutely.
ANY gun at least fifty years old is a c&r.
Included machine guns and sbs/sbr etc, but nfa rules also applt.

 

[yugorpk]

C5rider:
Absolutely.
ANY gun at least fifty years old is a c&r.
Included machine guns and sbs/sbr etc, but nfa rules also applt.

Sort of. Any unmolested factory configuration gun made over 50 years ago is a C&R. If it was made as an SBR or MG its a C&R . If someone made it into a SBR or MG its not. Form 1 conversion guns are not C&R's

A whole bunch of guns like early Colt AR-15's are about to come into the C&R realm.

 

[il.bill]

Having an eligible handgun shipped right to your front door is a hoot. I really liked finding good deals on CZ82s and Yugo M57 Tokarevs - but my favorite C&R purchase was a late 1950s Smith & Wesson Model 15 Revolver. As stated above, any pre-1966 manufactured firearm in its original configuration is C&R eligible. The heyday for bargains on European imports may largely be behind us, but lots of good deals are still to be found with some diligent (and responsible - credit cards can make it awful easy to buy 'good deal' after 'good deal) searching. Good luck and enjoy!

 

[rklessdriver]

After nearly 15yrs of holding a C&R the ATF finally inspected me back in 2010.... The agent didn't even look in my safe at the actual firearms.... All she did was look over my bound book and compare the copies of the FFLs the seller/buyers sent/gave me.

Took about 25mins, the agent was nice and professional. Even worked out her inspection date so it could be on my day off work.
Will

 

[slumlord44]

Had mine for years. Best thing I ever did. Good advice and info here so far. Some sellers won't take it and they don't have to. Their choice. One thing with the 50 year old rule is that you have to be able to document the date of manufacture in some way. Some guns are easy. Some are in a grey area. Not sure what problems would be if it is a grey area. Never had an audit yet and this is my 3rd or 4th renewal. Just keep good records and you should not have a problem. Only problem is it is way too easy to spend money.

 

[C5rider]

Great info!

And, I hope asking this question contributes to clarifying about C&R 03 FFL.

So, IF I get a C&R FFL and I have C&R eligible guns that are/were/possibly WILL be purchased NOT using the C&R FFL, does the FFL come into play? Or, are only guns purchased USING the C&R FFL affected?

Just trying to figure out if deciding to get a C&R today affects future purchases, or only if I chose to make it so. Clarifications from some of the C&R veterans greatly appreciated!

 

[il.bill]

Any and every C&R eligible firearm you acquire or dispose of while being an 03FFL Licensee must be properly entered into your Bound Book for Acquisitions and Dispositions

It makes no difference if you buy/sell using your 03FFL, by going through the ATF Form 4473 background check process, or if your grandmother gives you your great-grandpa's old shotgun. Every eligible firearm must be entered in your book, regardless of the actual acquisition and/or disposition process used.

You are not required to enter any firearms that you acquired before getting your 03FFL, whether they are eligible now, or become eligible due to age while holding your license, unless: a) you want to; or b) you dispose of the firearm while holding the license. In that case it must be entered in your Bound Book as an Acquisition from your own private collection and then entered as a Disposition.

If and when your 03FFL expires and you choose not to renew, you do not have to send any records in to the BATFE since you were not in the business of dealing firearms.

An 03FFL for a Collector of Curio and Relic Firearms means extra paperwork for many folks (I imagine some already track the information on their firearms buying and selling at least as much as required by the BATFE) but i felt it was well worth it. The only significant downside I see is that it is too easy to continually find 'bargains' and 'deals' on C&R firearms, running up the old credit card charges quicker than you realize.

 

[C5rider]

Excellent information il.bill !!!!

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Tabequache]

Posts here are very informative and useful. Perhaps our moderator wouldn't mine creating a sticky for us. Thanks anyway for all the posts.