C&R Renewal - CLEO copy of App?!

[Cacique500]

Just got my renewal for my 03 FFL - fairly straight forward except when I got to the part about sending a copy of the renewal app to the CLEO. My problem is that on the renewal you have to list how many things you've acquired and sold - don't really think I want my CLEO to have that information.

Anybody that's done a recent renewal I'd appreciate hearing how you handled this. I'm actually thinking about letting my C&R expire and then reapplying with the 'generic' application. Either that or sending them a 'completed' application with those boxes empty...

 

[hornadylnl]

I printed up the form the other night and was finally seriously considering sending it in. I read the part that I had to send a copy to the CLEO. That was strike 1. Then someone posted a section of the regs that stated that your ammo supplies would now be under the scrutiny of the ATF. That was strike 2. Now your telling me that you have to list everything you bought and give it to your CLEO when you renew it? That is definitely strike 3 at the bottom of the ninth with 2 outs allready.

I haven't read too much on c&r liscenses but from what I've read they are nothing more than a fishing expedition for the ATF. If and when they check up on your books, guns, and ammo, I'm sure they notate whether you are possibly a revolutionary militia type. If not, why do they need to see your ammo supply? I think the ATF has a blanket belief that those who would try to start a revolution are militia types and like military rifles and would use this liscense to build an arsenal to take on the government.

My problem with notifying the CLEO is what happens if the CLEO has a beef with you?

 

[Car Knocker]

My problem with notifying the CLEO is what happens if the CLEO has a beef with you?

Since the CLEO is not required to approve the application, if you have no record, what can he do?

 

[Rumpled]

I just went thru the same thing. I really don't want my local CLEO to know how many guns I've bought. (Even more so than my wife! LOL)
I ended up just renewing anyways. Still don't like it though.
Since my CLEO is different than my initial app, I wonder what he'll do if anything.
Also, my CLEO situation is a little interesting. I live in an incorporated city that is served by the sheriff for law enorcement. They have a Lt. as Chief of Police Services for my city. (As with many others in my county) So I sent my initial app and renewal to the Chief of Police Services Lt.

 

[Bruce333]

I read the part that I had to send a copy to the CLEO. That was strike 1.

Where are you that you are that concerned? (so I know where to stay away from)

Then someone posted a section of the regs that stated that your ammo supplies would now be under the scrutiny of the ATF. That was strike 2.

[strike]Only C&R ammo...normal everyday ammo you can buy at most any store isn't on the list.[/strike] see post below

Now your telling me that you have to list everything you bought and give it to your CLEO when you renew it? That is definitely strike 3 at the bottom of the ninth with 2 outs allready.

Not a list of firearms...just the number of C&Rs bought and sold. As the OP noted, all you have to do is let your C&R expire and start over with a new application. Don't have to keep your book for the expired one either.

 

[Steelcore]

There is no C&R ammo category anymore.It was created to allow C&R FFLs to buy essentially obsolete ammo mail order.From 1968 to 1986 is was illegal to mail order ammo.You had to go to a gun store to buy it.

 

[hornadylnl]

There are several issues I have with the C&R liscense so far. I've been told on here that you don't have to log any previous C&R guns you had before you got your liscense. So if the ATF guy shows up and counts that I have a total of lets say 5 C&R guns and only 3 in the book, it is my word against his as to when I bought those other 2 guns. Especially if those 2 guns were bought as a private transaction without a 4473 on them. If the agent is a jerk, I'll go to jail.

I live in a small rural county. As far as I know, the newly elected sheriff is a great guy. I've made my political opinion known a few times via the county paper so some people would recognize my name. I've never been in jail and never been arrested. What if there is a warrant put out for my arrest over a mistake or misunderstanding? The local sheriff may then decide "hey we better send in the big boys, this guy is a gun nut!". They then bust in my door and I shoot someone thinking they are robbers trying to break in. This is a longshot but I don't need to add to the possibility. If you don't think this is possible, then you haven't read any of the threads on here where swat teams have busted into the wrong house and someone ends up dead. This alone probably wouldn't deter me from getting a C&R but it definitely doesn't help.

As far as my ammo goes, I load for my M1 in a rainbow of colors. If I buy a 1903, they would consider ammo I have for the M1 as ammo for the 1903, even though I have it all sitting in clips. It is none of their business what and how much ammo I have.

I understand the CLEO can't deny my application but he is angry at me politically, he can use my liscense against me for a future unrelated issue. It is none of his business how many guns I have bought.

After weighing all the pros against the cons, I've decided that the liscense is an erosion of freedoms, not a gain. I can buy the same guns without it and sometimes, get them through private sale so that is even better yet. If I have the liscense a buy one through a private sale, I'll still have to log it. In the end, I think the liscense is a fishing expediition by the feds to root out revolutionary types. If not, then why does the CLEO need to know and why are they looking at your ammo? If they think Tank Johnson was trying to start a war with 500 rounds of ammo for a total of 6 guns, what would they think of someone who bought a single case from CMP or whoever?

 

[hornadylnl]

"There is no C&R ammo category anymore.It was created to allow C&R FFLs to buy essentially obsolete ammo mail order.From 1968 to 1986 is was illegal to mail order ammo.You had to go to a gun store to buy it."

If this is the case, then why haven't they dropped it from the regs? Even still, the atf agent has no way of knowing whether you mail ordered your ammo or had a dealer order it in for you. If he found c&r ammo, do you have to provide a receipt that you bought it at Joe's gun shop in town?

 

[loumarch]

You do not need an FFL to purchase ammo anymore, therefore it is NOT required that you report or log ammo purchases.

It is highly doubtful that your CLEO will even look at your app in any detail. It is a courtesy notification only. He/She cannot take any action. All they will know is how many C&Rs you have acquired. They will not know what they are.

Sometimes this can be beneficial to you. Such as in a burglary or fire.

If you are that worried about some type of retaliation then I think you have larger issues than just a privacy issue. If you are that uncomfortable with the LE agency in your municipality then you should not renew.

 

[Technosavant]

So if the ATF guy shows up and counts that I have a total of lets say 5 C&R guns and only 3 in the book, it is my word against his as to when I bought those other 2 guns.

So IF they ever call for an appointment, ask to have it at their office- it is an option for us C&R people. They don't get to search your house- at most, they ask to see your log, and then ask to see the guns listed.

While I have heard of one or two C&R guys having the ATF ask to talk to them, I have NEVER heard of an abusive conversation. The 01 FFLs are a much greater priority and C&R holders are a law abiding bunch.

 

[k_dawg]

In my many years of having my C&R, I only had one phone call. The agent asked if I had my bound book handy, and since I was home, I did. Over the phone, he asked me how many C&R firearms had I purchased since X date, and I looked it up [ I think it was 5 ]. He just asked what type they were, and what the serial number on one of them was, and where I purchased it. He said thank you, and I asked "That's it?", and he said Yes.

Frankly, the discount at Brownell's is worth it for me, even if I never purchased any firearms with the license

 

[CDignition]

just don't send in the sheet to the CLEO... It isn't registered mail, and it isn't kept track of...play stupid..

You also wont go to jail if there are problems... Alot of 01FFL's have had troubles with their books, they are usually advised to keep better records, etc...you gotta really screw up to get asscanned,lol..

 

[CU74]

C&R Ammunition

Here is a section from the BATF C&R list that shows there is no longer a C&R Ammunition category. Also shows why it is still listed in the regs.


THE FIREARMS CURIOS or RELICS LIST
This list is composed of four major sections:
SECTION I - Ammunition Classified as Curios or Relics: Ammunition is no longer classified as "curios or relics" since the Congress in 1986 removed the interstate controls over ammunition under the GCA. We have continued the listing of 1972-1986 ammunition determinations as a service to those who rely on this list as a means of evaluation.
SECTION II - ............................................

 

[hornadylnl]

Ok, what happens when you get an anti atf agent who wants to see your ammo? It has been kept in the regs for 20 years after it was necessary for a reason. Don't you think the ammo will be used against you if the rkba goes south again? A little discount at Midway or Brownells isn't worth it for me.

 

[Technosavant]

Let me know if that ever happens to anybody, and if they ever want to see my stash, I'll post it here. As far as I am concerned, they can come back with a search warrant if they want to see my ammo locker.

I think you are getting excessively paranoid; I don't expect to ever have an agent call at all, and if they do, they've got better things to do than to worry about the ammo stash of somebody who has passed every background check they've had to offer.

 

[Car Knocker]

A little discount at Midway or Brownells isn't worth it for me./QUOTE]
Then don't apply for one - it's not like it's mandatory. It's not worth the agonizing you're going through. Tens of millions of gun owners don't have one and live happily ever after.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

You are right in that the C/R lets you do nothing more from a fed gov perspective than you could do without regulation, say in 1967. It does get you some local perks and exemptions and really isn't a bad thing. It also makes theft of your goodies a federal crime. Steal my guns (and survive) and bad guys get to go to club fed for 10 years.

In some places, local and state law permits C/R holders rights denied to the un-licenced. This is all on the local place, not the feds. You can also ship and recieve guns with fedex and other places. It exempts you from local bans, etc. You can make the sheep feel more calm as you stroke them and they go 'baahhhh..curios and relics....don't scare me....I like antiques....bahhhh'.

Don't sweat the ammo. Give it to your wife or brother or (law abiding) pal. Put it in a plastic tote in your closet marked 'Vinnie's Ammo' or whatever. You're storing it for Vinnie cause his girl doesn't want it around her kids because of the lead and that's why it ain't yours or involved with your license if you're worried.

Vinnie's got a Garand, too. For all I care tell them that all that bad boy silver/blue/red/black tip .o6 is mine.


Point being, reconsider. The c/r is made for M-1 owners. The Canadian border guard will feel of-so-much -better about you at the border, too.
A nice spiffy federal ID to go with that old rifle.

 

[kfranz]

Ok, what happens when you get an anti atf agent who wants to see your ammo?

You tell him no.

A little discount at Midway or Brownells isn't worth it for me.

You think that if they're gonna hassle C&R holders who happened to purchase at Brownells, that they aren't gonna hassle you?

 

[ctdonath]

.

 

[DougW]

ATF agents cannot search your house without a SEARCH WARRANT, unless you give them probable cause to do so. You don't even have to let them see where you store your weapons. All they want to see is the bound book, and they may ask to see specific weapons that are C&R. Nothing else. And if they discover that you have 10,000 rounds of ammo, so what, as there are no federal limits on ammo ownership. There could be local laws, but there had better be a local police official with the ATF and the SEARCH WARRANT to search your premisis when they find the 10,000 rounds of ammo.

As others have stated, sending a copy of your C&R to the CLEO is part of the law. If you choose to ignore it, what else are you hiding? Is is that hard to obey the laws and follow the rules?

 

[kfranz]

The C&R paperwork only applies to stuff that you obtained & disposed via the C&R FFL. If you obtained it or sold it without flashing the C&R paper, its your personal non-FFL-related stash and thus off those books.

Not if it's C&R eligible.

 

[Bruce333]

The C&R paperwork only applies to stuff that you obtained & disposed via the C&R FFL. If you obtained it or sold it without flashing the C&R paper, its your personal non-FFL-related stash and thus off those books.

Sorry, not accurate.

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=20879

Okay, if you recall, I had sent a letter to ATF regarding a whole list of questions that kept popping up. I now have scanned in the letter as proof for the answers.

I will paraphase the question/answers

Q1. About prior owned C&R's, do they need to be entered into the log book?

A1. No, however if disposed of, they will need to be noted in the log book

Q2. What about firearms I get without the use of the license, do they need to be entered?

A2. Yes, even if you do not hand over a copy of the license, you need to enter them in your book

 

[ctdonath]

I'll second the paranoia criticisms.

The C&R license is a Federal Firearms License, so some government oversight is expected. What's striking is how little there is. At most the ATF will ask you to go to their office and open your official book, just to show you are indeed keeping correct-looking records of firearms aquired & disposed.

The ATF will NOT:
- search your house at random intervals
- require you to track ammo
- comment on anything not C&R related & required.

Yes, you DO have to mail a copy of the application to your local CLEO. Required by law, so do it (none of this "oh, gee, I guess he never got it" BS). If anything it's a courtesy to him and CYA for you: if your neighbor gets nosey & nervous, calls 911 and reports gun-running next door, it won't be a surprise to the local police. You have to comply with all relevant laws anyway, so short of him being a complete prick you don't have anything to worry about.

If you want absolute anonymity, a C&R is not for you.

I don't recall anything requiring you tell the CLEO how many guns you've bought/sold since the last renewal. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)



And pardon the wording of my prior comment. One annoying thing about Internet conversations is how quickly people will slam you for posting a general comment that is not perfectly accurate in every detail. Relax, guys. Lose the paranoia.

 

[kfranz]

And pardon the wording of my prior comment. One annoying thing about Internet conversations is how quickly people will slam you for posting a general comment that is not perfectly accurate in every detail. Relax, guys. Lose the paranoia.

Nobody slammed you. You posted factually incorrect information that if followed would put someone in violation of ATF's rules for record keeping. You were corrected, that's all.

 

[Cacique500]

I don't recall anything requiring you tell the CLEO how many guns you've bought/sold since the last renewal. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

That was the gist of the original post - on the renewal app it says that you must send a copy of the completed renewal to your CLEO (and also list his name on the app) and the date that you sent it - there are two boxes on the app (I believe 7a and 7b) asking how many C&R's you've obtained and sold with your license. I understand why the ATF wants this information - that's not my issue. I've purchased far more (like 10 to 1) than I've sold...but I just don't believe the CLEO should have that information.

I'm not paranoid - I know I'm already on his "list" (literally, he keeps a folder of all Title II) due to my NFA stuff...just don't like the thought of having to tell the local CLEO about it which was the original point of my first post.