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caliber,bullets,SD & dangerousG...

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by 16n69, Mar 19, 2012.

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  1. 16n69

    16n69 member

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    Ok...what is it about this that sparks such controversy & contrary views?
    Secondly, I am not "obsessed with bears, terrified, or incompetent...I do not care how 'fast' you think you are with a mechanical action...I will be faster with an auto-loader under duress... not only placement matters, but tissue, skeletal & organ damage matters and you have few seconds for that, so yes, I'll take 3 well aimed shots with heavy-penetrating projectile to your one...).
    Originally,(OP)... all I wanted was to be as sure as humanly possible that I had the most capable gun/caliber/projectile for the purpose, as unlikely as an encounter & Brown bear attack may be, I will be in high populated area...the neighbors there have had "encounters" with serious consequences and I take that seriously.

    You do not go out as an officer, soldier, hunter into your field of combat where the predators (2 or 4 legged) roam unprepared or under-gunned!

    So how is it...all you "bullet & ballistic" experts...that the .338 Win. Mag w/jacketed hunting rounds, are the #1 cartridge/rifle of AK. guides backing hunters...light bullets 200-250gr. (light by craigC standards???...no offense)
    ...some say nothing under 500gr. cast FN solid will stop the bear?

    I am an old combat hand-gunner & occasional deer-elk hunter, what do I know about bears & defense of?
    However...I need to review what I have learned from all you survivor-hunter-thousands-o-rounds a month shooters and bullet & ballistic gurus have taught me:
    #1. Bear attacks=unlikely=paranoia (even in proved areas like Glacier MT. & surrounding area which rival or surpass AK., have family there, I know)

    #2. SG w/slugs even modern hi-tech hardened Brenneke BM…are inadequate:Fact;"the diameter of a Brennele* 12 ga slug is .73 inches,*much larger then most every rifle or pistol bullet.*The Frontal area of all Brenneke USA slugs*immediately on impact open to .80 caliber and maintain*their original shape and*most all of its weight throughout the wound channel.* The high momentum factor allows*penetration of both hard and soft barriers, while maintaining a*higher average terminal velocity. This, along with its massive frontal area means more tissue damage, hemorrhage and trauma, it will stop an animal immediately."

    #3. Only guns & cartridges that "look like" guns used in Big Game Hunting & the Big "5", along with "cowboy" rifles used to win the West & kill the Buffalo, is sufficient for Grizzly defense.

    #4. The real best defense against a Grizzly sow protecting to-the-death, her cubs... or a p.o.'d boar determined to tear you limb form limb, is spraying them with pepper, no need for violence…lol

    #5. The 1st, and any other shot you most likely won't get... better be CNS or break shoulders & hips or your dead.

    #6. In most attacks…the bear is "on you" within 3 seconds or less…so you won't even get one shot off if you carry "sanely", "cruiser ready".

    I am just a guy who wants to be well prepared…even for the "unlikely".
    I am not now, nor after hundreds of rounds with the gun I choose, lacking confidence in my shooting ability…but I still believe more well placed shots in the shortest time (Fact:attack is quick) with enough energy and biggest/heaviest deep penetrating projectile is better, than just one shot that even with the best marksmen may miss in this scenario.
    Semi-auto's deliver this better than mechanical worked actions.

    So if a .80 cal. Brenneke slug@ over 3,000ft.lbs.,...hardened slugs that cause massive tissue damage, are "iffy" and 45 cal. .458SOCOM 405gr. bullets are also…then why would a .338 be good "bear medicine" as the hunters & guides say, not just for "hunting", but defense?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2012
  2. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    Did you e-mail the bear guide? Tell you what, he's a regular over on the 24 Hour Campfire forums. His handle is 458Win. Ask him and let us know what he says. Matter of fact, I'll watch for your post over there.
    By the way, last time I read one of his articles, he was carrying an aperture sighted bolt rifle for backup.

    35W

    P.S.- Please lose the bold text. Reading your posts is like watching a herd of zebras run laps around a soccer field.
     
  3. Robert101

    Robert101 Member

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    Holy crud Batman...... was that a question or a statement?
     
  4. 16n69

    16n69 member

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    Both;)
     
  5. 16n69

    16n69 member

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    I thought only CAPS were baddd forum manners?
    Mod said to use other for emphasis, so I did???
    Who is this .458 Win. ? Phil Shoemaker?
    Someone on this forum said he runs a kinda dude ranch for AK wannabe hunters and is just a writer?
     
  6. LoonWulf

    LoonWulf Member

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    Ive read your other post, and I would also be interested in what your reply is from Mr. Shoemaker. I live in hawaii so this discussion dosnt pertain to me, but I do find the information interesting.
    As for why this causes such controversy, well we all have your opinions, knowledge base, and prejudices. I would suggest you take the basic suggestions and information to heart.

    Out of curiosity, what is your firearms background? Im actually interested not trying to be a jerk (and if i missed it in one of your other threads I apologize).
     
  7. jon86

    jon86 Member

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    16n69, what would you like to know?
     
  8. 16n69

    16n69 member

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    Handguns, primarily Colt 1911 .45's.
     
  9. 16n69

    16n69 member

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    The .338 Win. Mag. is often cited as the most common BUG carried by guides...
    given it's SD (sectional density seemingly to be the "holy grail" determining stopping DG/Bears...?)
    ...then given the ballistics of .458 SOCOM, 45-70 Govt., & Brenneke BM slugs, seems like they all would get the job done and it is up to the shooter and the "one shot" you may get when charged...but regardless of gun/projectile you have less than a 50-50 chance for survival,much less...would that about sum it up?
    That is what I got out of 3 threads on this forum!
     
  10. jon86

    jon86 Member

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    I've never shot a grizzly. I probably never will.
    But from what I've read, you summed it up. Any of the four calibers you mentioned will probably work, provided the shooter does his part.
     
  11. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    The Mod said to use italics for emphasis.

    Phil Shoemaker is an Alaskan bear guide, he does NOT run a dude ranch. Again, here's his website: Grizzly Skins of Alaska

    458Win is his handle over on the 24 Hour Campfire forum.

    Whoever told you he runs a Dude Ranch for AK wannab'es is very uninformed. Click the link and check out his website.

    35W
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2012
  12. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    I've done a few tests on speed and accuracy:

    Firing 3 shots as fast as possible, without aiming at a target resulted in the following times from fastest to slowest.

    Semi auto .5 seconds
    870 pump w slugs .7 seconds
    44 mag lever 1.39 seconds
    30-30 lever 1.41 seconds
    45-70 lever 1.78 seconds
    M-70 bolt rifle 30-06 1.88 seconds

    The 2nd round required me to hit a 9" pie plate at 50 yards with 3 shots as fast as possible.

    Semi auto-- 2.68 seconds
    870 -- 2.98 seconds, but I failed to hit with all 3 shots
    44 mag-- 3.88 seconds, failed to hit all 3 times
    30-30-- 3.97 seconds, failed to hit all 3 shots
    30-06 --4.08 seconds, 3 hits, 2" group
    45-70--4.17,seconds, failed to make 3 hits

    There have been several gunwriters who have conducted comprehensive testing as well as the Alaska Game and fish dept on the effectiveness of various cartridges as well as bullets with suprising results.

    The best perfomers started with the 375 H&H magnum and larger magnum chamberings. They gave the best results with lots of penetration and expansion.

    The surprising part was that 30-06 or any of the 300 magnums when loaded with 200-220 gr Nosler partitions were the 2nd best performers. Outclassing the 338 magnum, 35 Whelen and even hot loaded 45-70 rounds. The larger calibers delivered more energy, but their larger diameters limited penetration, which is the key.

    12 guage slugs were poor performers with very little penetration.

    The semi's are faster, but because of the harsh conditions they are used in I simply don't trust their reliability, same for the lever actions. I'd personally prefer the rugged simplicity of a heavy loaded bolt action in 30-06. But the speed of a pump chambered in 30-06 might well be a better choice. I simply don't have much experience with a pump and trust the bolt gun more. I know that the Alaska DNR recommends a 375 mag as a first choice and has no problem recommending a properly loaded 30-06 as a strong 2nd choice since recoil is much less and many can shoot the 30-06 much better.
     
  13. Robert

    Robert Moderator Staff Member

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    Interesting. Do you know if they were using hard cast lead or jacketed HP or SP bullets for the 45-70 test?
     
  14. SimplyChad

    SimplyChad Member

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    If a hard cast 45-70 hot loaded didnt penetrate adequately enough I dont want to know what would and how heavy the rifle would have to be to use it.
     
  15. wombat13

    wombat13 Member

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    This got me thinking about a BAR rechambered for .375 Taylor (wildcat based on the .338WM case). BARs are available in .338WM and the .375 Taylor has ballistics similar to the .375H&H.

    The key question is whether the BAR could handle the beating.
     
  16. 16n69

    16n69 member

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    Can you buy .375 Taylor commercially...or is it hand-load only?
     
  17. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

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    Well, it's the first shot that matters, IMHO. Why exactly are you going to be faster with that first shot using an autoloader? However, if you really want an auto, there's no conflict with the .338 choice: get a BAR or Benelli R1; or maybe an AR in .338 Fed?
    Are you sure "they say" slugs are "inadequate?" I think they may not be ideal. But one of our more experienced posters on this subject likes slugs because they go to point of aim every time for him--and that counts for a lot.
    Are you acquainted with why Big Game Hunting rifles look the way they do? Probably, but to review--

    Extreme environments (dust, rain and heat in Africa; cold, ice, mud and rain in grizzly country) are not the ideal environments for semi-autos. Murphy's Law and all that. PHs in Africa do not, I believe, use the guns they use because they "look the part", but because they work every time, and have for decades. Maybe that experience means something.
    Absolutely a great idea, but not a sure thing, so I'd want a firearm as back-up. Brings up the problem of which do you reach for? :uhoh:
    The only reliable bear stopper is a CNS hit. If that's what it is--should we say something else?
    Bears are quick. If you see one at distance, you'll try to avoid it; if it sees, hears, or smells you, it will (in most circumstances) avoid you and/or announce itself, so you can avoid it.

    Given that, why is it hard to believe that a bear attack will most likely occur close-in with little warning time? Again, if that's true, should we say something else?
    Well, if a guide has decades of experience (and confidence) in that rifle, and can hit with it, it is good bear medicine. I might (myself) prefer a larger rifle caliber (as long as I shoot it well), but heck: I'll figure that the guide has some idea of what works for him.
    I think placement first. Then SD combined with adequate muzzle velocity.
    Hmmm.
    I've found lever-actions to be extremely reliable in harsh conditions. YMMV.

    ----

    My own thoughts: The rule for SD guns is carry the most power gun that you can shoot well. I don't think that changes for defense against dangerous animals.

    If you can shoot the .458 Lott well, fine, use that. Some will consider it overkill, but (as someone said) overkill is under-rated :D. And if you use something like a Barnes TSX, then all that extra energy will add a little extra thump compared to a solid, non-expanding bullet--and that might help to "discourage" the bear if you miss the CNS.

    I don't think there's a lot of info on whether deeply penetrating, expanding bullets or the even more deeply penetrating solids would work best against a charging bear. Of course, with a CNS hit it won't matter. In Africa, many folks think that expanding bullets are better for stopping charges of thin-skinned animals, like lion.

    Well. That "most powerful you can shoot well" gun will vary from person to person. I think carrying less that your most powerful, well shot gun is playing the "how little can I get away with against a bear" game; and that game actually makes sense to a point. If you're fishing, do you keep a revolver in a chest holster, or a shotgun on your back (or on shore)?

    And, if I'm working with a guide who's killed scores of bear with his measley .338--I'm going to tell him it's a poor choice? :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2012
  18. wombat13

    wombat13 Member

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    It is a wildcat. Handload only as far as I know. I posted a question about this conversion on the Rifle board this morning and a poster suggested converting the BAR to .375 Ruger. That has a bit more wallop than the .375 H&H and commercial ammo is available.
     
  19. 16n69

    16n69 member

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    You are taking my words out of context:"The only reliable bear stopper is a CNS hit. If that's what it is--should we say something else?
    Quote:
    In most attacks…the bear is "on you" within 3 seconds or less
    Bears are quick. If you see one at distance, you'll try to avoid it; if it sees, hears, or smells you, it will (in most circumstances) avoid you and/or announce itself, so you can avoid it.

    Given that, why is it hard to believe that a bear attack will most likely occur close-in with little warning time? Again, if that's true, should we say something else?
    Quote:
    I was not doubting that fact...just stating that fact and for that very reason...then I thought with so little time to react & follow-up, the fastest action would be best(semi-auto)

    why would a .338 be good "bear medicine"
    Well, if a guide has decades of experience (and confidence) in that rifle, and can hit with it, it is good bear medicine. I might (myself) prefer a larger rifle caliber (as long as I shoot it well), but heck: I'll figure that the guide has some idea of what works for him.
    I believe it is good...just asking if the width & weight of a .338 is OK, than why would not a Brenneke @ .80 Cal. and like a hard cast or a .458 socom @ 405gr. or heavier be good?
     
  20. Freedom_fighter_in_IL

    Freedom_fighter_in_IL Member

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    OK first off, who was telling you that the most common rifle used by guides for bear defense was a .338? Because whoever told you that is stone cold wrong. It may be one of the most common rifles for hunting but it is by NO means the most common for defense. I've hunted and fished all over the great northern state of Alaska with many guides and and friends up there for over 30 years. THE absolute MOST common bear defense weapon carried up there is a 12 gauge pump loaded up with slugs.

    And no a semi auto action up there is NOT a good idea at all. Simply for reliability reasons. I personally would not be willing to bet my life on one.

    And you are WAY to worried about speed and followup shots. I've seen a couple of your other posts and have noted that you have already been told 15 times or more that 99.9% of bear attacks are SURPRISE encounters. Both of mine were. One was a sow with cubs and the other was a pretty damn big boar that didn't like me being at his favorite fishing hole. He bluffed a couple of times then came a truckin! Usually, if they bluff and you keep your eyes down and back away, they will let you alone. This one was NOT your usual boar. Only with the boar did I have time for a follow up shot. The sow was dead at my feet (literally) before the recoil came back down. You need to worry about that FIRST shot under duress. Just imagine trying to draw and aim well while peeing and crapping your pants at the same time while 1000 pounds of pissed off fur and teeth are coming to educate you.

    A 12gauge slug (Bren) gives you a slight advantage because of it's initial size. That HUGE impact can help in making up for the good possibility of being slightly off the mark.
     
  21. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

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    I had no intention of so doing. The context that I found them in was, perhaps, somewhat unclear.
    Depending on mode of carry and how surprised you are, I might think a pistol gives you the fastest first shot and very quick follow-up shots. Again, I think a SA and BA rifle give you an equally fast first shot. When I practice a big gun, my bolt is already closed by the time my sights are back on target--so I'm not sure I'd get any faster follow-on shots from a SA. (IMHO, I'd have to step down significantly in caliber to avoid the the need for recovering from recoil.)
    Not sure. But it might be that guides do a lot of types of hunting, and the .338 serves in many roles that the shotgun slug could not. So they've decide to carry one rifle, and get really good with it.

    It's unclear to me (see context, above) if you are asking why guides "prefer" .338s for grizzlies (do they?), or why "everyone" says shotgun slugs won't work (I don't think "everyone" says that). As to .458 SOCOM, I suspect there's just very little experience with that round on grizz (but I could be wrong). And again, maybe there are just general concerns about the stamina of a semi-auto platform in or near the Artic Circle.
     
  22. Flintknapper

    Flintknapper Member

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    The .338 Win Mag would be excellent, it is a proven cartridge on Big Bear. Is it the “ultimate bear stopper”….no, but if I remember correctly…you are trying to narrow it down to one (of three) cartridges you now own (or will soon purchase), so those venturing beyond that are wasting your time.

    Those who characterize 300 gr and 405 gr. bullets as “light” or “varmint bullets” (for use on Bear) clearly have nothing to offer here.

    If you feel more comfortable using an autoloader…then please do so. Just make SURE it runs 100% and will do so under the conditions you will be in. You will also want to consider how you might carry it and how well you can actually wield it (get it into action).

    An honest to goodness bear attack (not a bluff) is most likely to happen at a distance well under 50 yds. (probably 30 yds or less). It will be quick….so unless you already have your weapon out and at the ready…chances are nill you’ll will get off more than two shots.

    With that in mind….shot placement is especially critical. Ideally, a CNS shot (with a cartridge of sufficient energy) is desired. You next best shot would be something that “breaks down” the bear (read shoulder, pelvis, spine aft of the shoulders) in order to render the bear LESS mobile.

    Your goal isn’t to kill the bear (necessarily)…but to stop the bear…. whether physically or by persuading it to break off its attack. Either way….it needs to be done quickly.

    You gain nothing if the bear expires 30 minutes after tearing you into small, unrecognizable pieces. A “mutual” kill is not what you are after.

    To that end….a bullet of sufficient weight that penetrates adequately (and preferably expands), is what should be used. Some folks dwell on penetration only, dismissing the importance of imparting shock (as much as possible) to the animal.

    That’s why the .338 Win Mag and .375 H&H do so well. No one is shooting “solids” out of them (for bear).

    Any of the cartridges you are considering (the slug, 45/70…or the SOCOM) can get the job done IF you can get good bullet placement. IF not…..then a lot depends on how dedicated the bear is at attacking you.

    The suggestion for carrying a good canister of bear spray was not a bad one…actually.
     
  23. charlie echo

    charlie echo Member

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    I've been thinking about a 16" barrel 458 WM bolt action carbine, because

    1. it'll be fun to shoot
    2. will save $ on reloading
    3. will hunt or stop any living being with an accurate shot or two with 500 grain solids.

    Since I have a 308, a 458 can be the all around back up or dangerous game gun.

    I'll want peep sights
     
  24. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    I watched H&H "double-tap" in IPSC style of speed with his .470 Rigby double. About a two- or three-inch spread at twenty yards. Probably plenty good, given the pictures he's sometimes posted here with big, mean, nasty, evil critters of the one ton and up variety.

    Ruggedness and reliability counts for something, I reckon, along with getting that first shot in where it does the most good. But I imagine that everybody has their own ideas about R&R.
     
  25. Flintknapper

    Flintknapper Member

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    You could just a take another person along and a .22 pistol.

    If a bear attacks, just "knee cap" the other person with the .22 and run for all you're worth.

    If the bear stops on the person you left behind, you're home free...if not then you can always turn the .22 on yourself. ;)

    Just another angle. :D
     
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