California- Carry from Car to Motel Room?

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.455_Hunter

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I am will be driving to California (LA and San Diego) with the family for a wedding this weekend. I think I understand the rules of car carry in California- gun must be unloaded and secured in a locked storage container (trunk or other secure gun case in the passenger compartment). No glove box or center console storage.

What about speedloaders? Can they be "loaded" and in the same container?

How do I get the gun/ammo into my motel room or relative's residence?

Can I put the gun case (locked or not?) in a duffel bag and carry it through the motel parking lot into the lobby on the way to my room? Obviously, stopping by the pool or restaurant would be out of the question.

Do local ordinances override the information found on the State AG and CHP websites?

:confused:

Thanks,

Hunter
 
Some local ordnances do but you should really stop by www.opencarry.org It is actually perfectly legal to carry an unloaded firearm on your person as long it is not concealed in anyway. You are also allowed to carry an magazine with ammunition on your person as long as it is not conealed either. Alot of open carriers in CA wear their mags in belt pouches

Therefore it is perfectly fine to carry your gun in a case from your car to your hotel room even if there is a loaded mag in the container. However, do NOT place a loaded magazine in the gun whatsoever. Just ask Marshawn Lynch about that
 
There is many legal ways to get it from the car to the motel room, but the only sane way would be in a locked case out of sight.

You can keep ammo and the firearm in the same container, but it cannot be in a position from which it can be fired under PC12031 which is further defined in case law. Essentialy detachable magazines have been fine if not inserted or loose ammunition is certainly fine. It cannot be in a detachable magazine inserted into the magazine well of the firearm or in the cylinder or chamber of the firearm or in the fixed magazine of the firearm. Otherwise the ammunition is then in a position from which it can be fired from the gun by manipulating the controls of the gun meeting the definition of loaded per the statute and case law.

People legaly open carrying unloaded firearms with concealed loaded magazines have run into some issues on PC12025 (but not PC12031.) Essentialy saying that they are in possession of a concealed firearm because it is an "essential component of the firearm" as defined by case law.
It is not a violation of PC12031 due the definition of loaded under the statute regarding a loaded firearm and case law of People vs Clark, but it can in some sitautions be illegal to conceal the magazine under People vs Hale. So meeting an exemption to PC12025 would be the best course of action for the magazine as well. The Hale ruling has some some cracks and loopholes for compliance but I don't want to explain any gray areas and confuse you.
So a loaded detached magazine is not a loaded gun (PC12031) but a concealed magazine can in some circumstances be a concealed gun (PC12025.) So you must either not have it concealed, or meet an exemption to PC12025 (which outlaws concealment) such as it being in a locked container.
Speed loaders are not an essential component of the firearm as defined by case law, and actualy could be concealed no differently than the loose ammunition, but I would just toss them in the container anyways. Moon clips however would likely be the same as the detachable magazine, qualifying as an "essential component of the firearm" under case law and likewise also be no different than the detachable magazine under Hale. So they would be best not to conceal without meeting an exemption to PC12025 (like being in a locked container.)

PC12025 says it is illegal to conceal a handgun, and then gives numerous exemptions to the entire statute along with PC12026 exemptions.
Once an exemption is met PC12025 and all code in that statute is no longer in effect. The clearest most easily defensible and easy to understand exemption is a locked container. Once in a locked container it is no longer illegal to conceal it.
So it would be fine to do whatever you want with it as long as possession of the firearm is legal in the location. So taking it to your room would be wise.

Ordinances do not overide state law, there is state preemption, but that does not mean you would not be arrested anyways.


So to summarize everything, you can legaly do everything you asked.
Just keep the firearm in a locked container between the car and the room. You can keep ammo in the same container. Speed loaders are not magazines or "essential components" yet it would be easier to just treat them as such, but magazines should be unconcealed or in a locked container (meeting an exemption) as they can be under case law the same as the firearm for purposes of PC12025 (but not PC12031.) The firearm itself as defined by PC12031 and relavent case law must be unloaded. So keep the gun itself unloaded during transport.


Some information on some gun laws on the AG site is actualy slightly more restrictive than the actual law since covering various exemptions and exceptions would remove clarity in thier brief summaries meant to simplify understanding of the law.
So if adhering to the information there you should be fine.

A violation of PC12025 by someone from out of state is a felony because you qualify for additional enhancements because your gun is not in the CADOJ database.
So keep everything in a locked container for transport and keep things simple. There is other legal methods but don't worry about them.
Once in your place of residence (the hotel room) the firearm may be kept loaded for self defense and stored in whatever manner you wish. (Do be mindful of the cleaning staff and others with potential access or children.)
 
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What about speedloaders? Can they be "loaded" and in the same container?
Yes.

How do I get the gun/ammo into my motel room or relative's residence?

Can I put the gun case (locked or not?) in a duffel bag and carry it through the motel parking lot into the lobby on the way to my room? Obviously, stopping by the pool or restaurant would be out of the question.
Locked would be the right answer, unless you choose to open carry; I wouldn't recommend that.

Do local ordinances override the information found on the State AG and CHP websites?
Generally, no. The ones that are more 'enthusiastic' are associated with purchase.
 
zoogster pretty much covered all of it.

A locked container can be a sturdy zippered bag, with a lock. A CA approved gun lock( for that model gun) will also work.( list is on the CA DOJ web site)

I would not recomend leaving your gun in your hotel room.
 
A locked container can be a sturdy zippered bag, with a lock. A CA approved gun lock( for that model gun) will also work.( list is on the CA DOJ web site)
A lock is NOT a container - even though CA wants you to buy one with every handgun purchase, a lock and a locked container are not interchangeable in terms of carry according to 12026.1/12026.2.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.
Nobody really knows what 'secure' means; 'sturdy' is probably good enough - I've never heard of anyone in trouble because of the construction of his locked container.
 
And if you need to access it to defend yourself and/or your family, then what?

If you have to basically make it inoperable or inaccessable to transport it why even bother taking it? If you have to open bags or cases to put everything together it may be too late. Or maybe you will just get lucky and the person robbing you only takes your gun and all your other valuables. Like you said, "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away..." Well in this case when seconds count, your gun is only minutes away... even if its in your hands!

The other option (of course not advisable) is to just carry it and hope, pray and take the gamble that you dont get caught.

I never thought I would ever say this to any gun owner, but if you are traveling anywhere in the Peoples Republic of California, you are better off just leaving your gun at home and taking a can of pepper spray and a loud whistle. The pain of what you will go through (legally, emotionally and financially) is not worth it. The only exception to anyone, even from out of state, carrying a gun concealed are law enforcement officers. The National Concealed Carry Law covers them.
 
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Thanks to everyone who has replied!

I never thought I would ever say this to any gun owner, but if you are traveling anywhere in the Peoples Republic of California, you are better off just leaving your gun at home and taking a can of pepper spray and a loud whistle.

I will bring my can of OC. I am not, however, going to spend a week on the road, driving from Denver to LA to SD to Denver without some sort of firearm. Yes, following CA law will not allow me instant access to my gun in public :)banghead:), but it will allow me to have my weapon in my motel room, which will be 10-12 hours per day. In addition, the weapon will be available in case of the unlikely event that something "bigger" occurs on the trip (natural disaster, social unrest, etc...). Finally, my Colorado CCW is also valid in Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico, so I can carry on a good portion of the drive as well.
 
nd if you need to access it to defend yourself and/or your family, then what?

If you have to basically make it inoperable or inaccessable to transport it why even bother taking it?
That's kind of the goal of the California law, isn't it?
 
Keep in mind that it is likely illegal to possess any magazine with over 10 rounds capacity.
Actually, no.

It's illegal to import one, sell one or give one away. It's illegal to manufacture one.

But simple possession is not restricted at all. Perfectly legal, if you possessed it in CA before 2000.

How, you may ask, does anyone establish "you possessed it in CA before 2000"?

Practically speaking, if you lived here before then, and the magazine is not something weird that fits only a gun manufactured after that date (if there is such a thing), it can't be proved otherwise. Mags are generally (a) not dated, and (b) not serialized, and (c) because of a and b, nobody keeps receipts or records.

If DOJ doesn't follow you home from a Nevada gun show (and they have been known to do that) and you don't say anything yourself, odds are good no one will know or care.
 
Keep in mind that it is likely illegal to possess any magazine with over 10 rounds capacity.

Not a concern on this trip! :)

Noticed I asked about speedloaders, not magazines... ;)

The firearms going on this trip are all wheelguns. :D
 
It is illegal to import one (i.e. purchase one from a seller in another state) if you are a resident of CA, there is no statute forbidding residents of other states bringing high capacity magazines to CA. Simple possession of a high capacity magazine is not against the regs in CA.

On the note of open carry, while it isn't the recommended way to go about things if you are trying to be incognito it is perfectly legal. Alot of OC'ers in CA have through practice found themselves able to successfully load their gun and chamber a round in a fairly expeditious manner.

That being said, just keep your gun in its case in your bag and you'll be fine. I carry my gun in a case everytime I go to the range here in San Diego and so does everyone else.
 
It is illegal to import one (i.e. purchase one from a seller in another state) if you are a resident of CA, there is no statute forbidding residents of other states bringing high capacity magazines to CA. Simple possession of a high capacity magazine is not against the regs in CA.
No import is defined as bringing it into the state.
Importing them into the state is illegal unless they were already owned by that individual and within the state prior to the passage of the law.

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any
ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10
rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it
cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action
firearm.

Exemptions mainly consist of:
Being in the business of legaly selling firearm and licensed to do so because then you can sell them to the privelidged classes like LEO.
Being a LEO.
Making a movie that you need such magazines in.
Being in the Armed Forces AND engaged in the performance of your duties. (On duty, even people in the military are subject to the law while not following orders "in the performance of thier duties." Meaning if they live off base or own personal weapons they are still subject to the law.)


I will highlight a portion of the exemptions that will help you to understand California considers just bringing the magazine into the state importation.

(23) The importation of a large-capacity magazine by a person who
lawfully possessed the large-capacity magazine in the state prior to
January 1, 2000, lawfully took it out of the state, and is returning
to the state with the large-capacity magazine previously lawfully
possessed in the state.
Even a former resident who legaly had a magazine prior to January 1, 2000 who left the state is considered importing the magazine back into the state if they come back with it. They are given an exemption here, but clearly this exemption makes it clear that if they were importing the magazine they did not legaly have in the state prior to that date they would not meet the exemption and would be violating the law.

(19) The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this
state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine to or by any
federal, state, county, city and county, or city agency that is
charged with the enforcement of any law, for use by agency employees
in the discharge of their official duties whether on or off duty, and
where the use is authorized by the agency and is within the course
and scope of their duties.
(20) The sale to, lending to, transfer to, purchase by, receipt
of, or importation into this state of, a large-capacity magazine by a
sworn peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with
Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a
firearm in the course and scope of his or her duties.
(21) The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by
a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.
(22) The loan of a lawfully possessed large-capacity magazine
between two individuals if all of the following conditions are met:
(A) The person being loaned the large-capacity magazine is not
prohibited by Section 12021, 12021.1, or 12101 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code from
possessing firearms or ammunition.
(B) The loan of the large-capacity magazine occurs at a place or
location where the possession of the large-capacity magazine is not
otherwise prohibited and the person who lends the large-capacity
magazine remains in the accessible vicinity of the person to whom the
large-capacity magazine is loaned.
(23) The importation of a large-capacity magazine by a person who
lawfully possessed the large-capacity magazine in the state prior to
January 1, 2000, lawfully took it out of the state, and is returning
to the state with the large-capacity magazine previously lawfully
possessed in the state.
(24) The lending or giving of any large-capacity magazine to a
person licensed pursuant to Section 12071, or to a gunsmith, for the
purposes of maintenance, repair, or modification of that
large-capacity magazine.
(25) The return to its owner of any large-capacity magazine by a
person specified in paragraph (24).
(26) The importation into this state of, or sale of, any
large-capacity magazine by a person who has been issued a permit to
engage in those activities pursuant to Section 12079, when those
activities are in accordance with the terms and conditions of that
permit.
(27) The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this
state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine, to or by
entities that operate armored vehicle businesses pursuant to the laws
of this state.
(28) The lending of large-capacity magazines by the entities
specified in paragraph (27) to their authorized employees, while in
the course and scope of their employment for purposes that pertain to
the entity's armored vehicle business.
(29) The return of those large-capacity magazines to those
entities specified in paragraph (27) by those employees specified in
paragraph (28).
(30) (A) The manufacture of a large-capacity magazine for any
federal, state, county, city and county, or city agency that is
charged with the enforcement of any law, for use by agency employees
in the discharge of their official duties whether on or off duty, and
where the use is authorized by the agency and is within the course
and scope of their duties.
(B) The manufacture of a large-capacity magazine for use by a
sworn peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with
Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a
firearm in the course and scope of his or her duties.
(C) The manufacture of a large-capacity magazine for export or for
sale to government agencies or the military pursuant to applicable
federal regulations.
(31) The loan of a large-capacity magazine for use solely as a
prop for a motion picture, television, or video production.
(32) The purchase of a large-capacity magazine by the holder of a
special weapons permit issued pursuant to Section 12095, 12230,
12250, 12286, or 12305, for any of the following purposes:

It is illegal for a regular peasant from another state to bring a magazine holding over 10 rounds into the state.

The law refers to everyone who comes within the borders of the state of CA there is no exception for foriegners.
 
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Zoogster wrote:

12020(c)(23) The importation of a large-capacity magazine by
a person who lawfully possessed the large-capacity magazine in
the state prior to January 1, 2000, lawfully took it out of the state,
and is returning to the state with the large-capacity magazine
previously lawfully possessed in the state.​

Even a former resident who legally had a magazine prior to January 1, 2000 who left the state is considered importing the magazine back into the state if they come back with it. They are given an exemption here, but clearly this exemption makes it clear that if they were importing the magazine they did not legaly have in the state prior to that date they would not meet the exemption and would be violating the law.


It is important to note that residency is not required by the above cite.

The very fact that a person lawfully acquired a hicap magazine (and thus lawfully possessed it) within CA on or before 12/31/1999 is sufficient for that same person to reimport it into CA.

Thus the following situations are legal w/regard to hicap mags over 10rds:

  • Obviously a CA resident that had hicap mags pre-2000 can take
    a vacation and return with them, which was probably the express
    intent of the cite.

  • But a CA resident having hicap mags in CA pre-2000 could also
    have moved outta CA *before* 2000, and still return to CA for either
    a visit - or a resumption of residency! - with those particular hicap
    mags he'd acquired/possessed in CA before 2000.

  • Also a CA resident having hicap mags in CA pre-2000 could also
    have moved outta CA *after* 2000, and still return to CA for either
    a visit - or a resumption of residency! - with those particular hicap
    mags he'd acquired/possessed in CA before 2000.

  • And, a non-CA (say, NV or AZ) resident could've purchased hicaps
    at, say, the Pomona, CA gunshow in the 1990s. He could return today
    into CA - for a visit, or even establishing residency - with those specific
    hicap mags he'd purchased in CA back then.


Because of this, hicap mag prosecutions are difficult except for folks talking themselves into jail (which many do). Burden of proof of illegal acquisition is on prosecution and unless there's a paper trail (receipts or VISA/MC activity,
witness testimony, direct tracing/association of hicap mag with an order of separated parts shipped into CA, or followed home by state agents from an outta-state gunshow), there's huge amount of reasonable doubt a crime occurred.

[A hicap mag fitting only guns made post-2000, however, would not likely pass the 'smell test'.]



Bill Wiese
San Jose CA
 
Because of this, hicap mag prosecutions are difficult except for folks talking themselves into jail (which many do). Burden of proof of illegal acquisition is on prosecution and unless there's a paper trail (receipts or VISA/MC activity,
witness testimony, direct tracing/association of hicap mag with an order of separated parts shipped into CA, or followed home by state agents from an outta-state gunshow), there's huge amount of reasonable doubt a crime occurred.

That is correct billwiese, and on that note I will point out one more thing.

Even if the magazine parts were made or ordered after that date and it can be proven in court that still does not prove they are illegal magazines.
A person can legaly repair magazines possessed before 2000 with modern magazine parts.
If over time that means virtualy every component of the magazine was replaced with modern parts it would still be a legal pre 2000 magazine even without any pre 2000 parts.

So even if they can show that specific parts or even all the parts of a magazine were made after 2000 it would not mean the magazine is illegaly possessed.
However as you state if it is for a gun or model of gun made after 2000 and does not work with a gun made before that then it clearly is a modern magazine. There is not much reasonable doubt you had a magazine for a gun that did not yet exist.

That means they essentialy rely on self incrimination to prove thier case. If the person says they did something illegal then they can be convicted.
Difficulty in prosecuting the case is not the law though.
The law states it is illegal to bring a magazine not in CA before 2000 even if they would have a difficult time prosecuting the case.

Further that can only apply for so many people. Years have passed and in CA someone can only own a handgun if they are 18+ and it is gifted to them by parent or grandparent(or purchase one if they are 21+.) Since 2003 they need a HSC to legaly purchase or have a handgun transfered to them. All handguns have automaticly been registered or required registration in the state during transfer since prior to 2000. Records of all will exist.
That means essentialy anyone who was not at least 18 by 2000 could have quite a difficult time proving they held a magazine for a gun they could not legaly own yet.
Sure they could have gone out and purchased multiple magazines for guns they could not own for years to come in anticipation of the law.
I imagine that would be an uphill legal battle though.

January 1, of 2000 was 9 years ago. 18+9=27. Essentialy nobody under the age of 27 should have any "high capacity" magazines unless they owned magazines before they could legaly own a gun, and that is if they were gifted a handgun at 18 or purchased a longarm. Since they could not purchase a handgun until 21 21+9=30, so nobody who purchased thier own first handgun, who is under the age of 30 should have high capacity magazines for a handgun.
Since a person cannot legaly transfer those magazines (unlike a place such as New York where they have pre ban and post ban magazines still similar to the federal AWB) someone who did not have them by 2000 could not obtain them later.

Technicaly guns owned prior to adulthood would be the property of the parent, and if the parents owned the magazines too they could not have legaly been transfered to the child after 2000. So the child would have had to have legal ownership of magazines for guns they could not legaly own.
Additionaly all handgun transfers have been registered automaticly in the state (or required a parent to send in the form to register them for family transfers) since prior to the enactment of the law.
That means they have a database of what CA residents legaly owned what handguns since before 2000.


So what you say is correct, but as time goes on the age group that should have legal high capacity magazines gets higher and higher. Now it is possible anyone from 1-17 had magazines for firearms they could not legaly own. It is possible a parent purchased thier 1 year old firearm magazines to preserve thier liberty to own them when they grew up. Not likely but possible. There would also be records of what handguns thier parents legaly owned when they were children as well (if purchased after automatic registration or DROS was used.)
It is also possible any child could have legaly purchased magazines as well for guns they could not legaly own as thier was no age requirement for purchase or ownership of magazines. So technicaly anyone who was born prior to 2000 could make an argument of legal ownership. Which means anyone currently 9-27 or 9-30 for handguns could legaly have had large capacity magazines.
It is just less likely. It is even less likely someone from another state who was a minor when the law was enacted traveled to CA prior to enactment, legaly purchased or owned CA magazines for guns they could not legaly own, and is now returning to the state with magazines they purchased in CA as a child for guns they could not legaly own.
So it is 99% likely anyone who was not a CA resident prior to 2000 and was under 18 (or under 21 without a family transfer exemption for handguns) is illegaly in possession of those magazines. So if someone is under the age of 27, or 30 for handguns and is a foriegn resident reasonable doubt is practicly removed. If they were never in CA before 2000 then it is certainly impossible.

All those minors traveling around the country and specificly to CA, purchasing magazines for guns they could not legaly own in the 90's. :rolleyes:
 
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"Because of this, hicap mag prosecutions are difficult except for folks talking themselves into jail (which many do). Burden of proof of illegal acquisition is on prosecution and unless there's a paper trail (receipts or VISA/MC activity,
witness testimony, direct tracing/association of hicap mag with an order of separated parts shipped into CA, or followed home by state agents from an outta-state gunshow), there's huge amount of reasonable doubt a crime occurred.

I fear that you underestimate the potential implications of just being prosecuted. If you get some DA who wants to make your life miserable to make a political point, the difficulty of the prosecution is irrelevant. The DA is not going to be sanctioned for the prosecution, except in the most egregious cases. And even if he were to be "reprimanded" by the Bar for unethical conduct, you would still be out tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees, faced with months of trial proceedings which would hang over your head, and having to deal with the stress of a "deal" which would get you out of jail, but pin you with a criminal record. You may laugh this off, but it is my experience that this is one of the most unpleasant things that anyone could ever deal with.

It has been my experience that a jury verdict of not guilty is a pyrrhic victory at best.
 
If you have to basically make it inoperable or inaccessable to transport it why even bother taking it?

While you can't have it loaded in your glovebox in California, you can legally have it concealed and loaded in your hotel room, campsite, etc.

If you don't bring it with you, that would be pretty difficult.

You can carry around the gun all day, every day, in a gun rug with a little luggage lock securing the zipper, perfectly legally, as long as the gun itself is not loaded (loaded magazines, speedloaders, stripper clips, speed strips, etc. can be with it, but not in it). No problem taking it to your hotel room.
 
ArmedBear said:
Is your concealed weapons permit valid for hiding a Bowie knife?
Who said anything about a CHL?

The traveling law protects us to and from our residence (motels count as "our residence"), and also covers Bowie knives.
 
I'll be honest here.

It's pretty sad when we actually need to ask how to legally transport a firearm from a car to a motel room. It's just sad.
 
:eek:

MEASURE : A.B. No. 1167
AUTHOR(S) : Nielsen.
TOPIC : Firearms: concealed firearm licenses: reciprocity.
HOUSE LOCATION : ASM

TYPE OF BILL :
Active
Non-Urgency
Non-Appropriations
Majority Vote Required
Non-State-Mandated Local Program
Fiscal
Non-Tax Levy

LAST HIST. ACT. DATE: 03/26/2009
LAST HIST. ACTION : Referred to Com. on PUB. S.

TITLE : An act to add Section 12058 to the Penal Code, relating to firearms.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_1151-1200/ab_1167_bill_20090227_introduced.html

SECTION 1. Section 12058 is added to the Penal Code, to read:
12058
(a) Persons holding a valid permit or license to carry a concealed handgun from any state or a political subdivision of a state shall be deemed a licensee under subparagraph (A) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of Section 12050.
(b) The Department of Justice shall enter into reciprocity agreements with all other states that have the legal authority to enter into those agreements so that licensees under Section 12050 may carry firearms in those states pursuant to the conditions imposed by Section 12050. The department shall each month maintain and publish a list of those states with which this state has established reciprocity.
 
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