Calling the police after intentionally brandishing? - Massad Ayoob says don't bother!

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JLStorm

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As I mentioned in a previous post, I decided to read through Ayoob's book "in the gravest extreme" one last time before handing it over to a new CCWer and I noticed for the first time that in every instance he wrote about where he intentionally brandished his weapon (but did not have to fire) in order to avoid a potentially deadly confrontation, he stated that it was pointless to call the police for one reason or another. In every single instance he mentioned he didnt bother to call the police either because the only description he had was to vague, or they would be released from custody due to lack of evidence, etc, etc. On the other hand I constantly read that I should immediately call the police in this situation.

I have mixed emotions because while I don't want someone else calling the police about the situation and giving them the wrong idea, I also dont want to admit to the police I brandished a weapon and have to risk possible weapon confiscation or some other BS reason that an unfriendly PD could pull if they wanted to, etc (such as the Philadelphia police department which has gotten a bad rap for this sort of thing).

Opinions please :confused:
 
Instead of calling the police to say, "I just pulled my gun . . . " the call should be more like, "These men just tried to do this . . . . Can an officer contact me to take my report?"

At least get the crimes on record, even if they go unsolved. The police won't know there's criminal activity in an area unless they are told.
 
I completely agree with Bullfrogken.

Whether you are an officer or a citizen and have to brandish, its a good idea to report the crime the other person committed.
 
BFKen, I have absolutely no problem with that, but I have read over and over that its especially important to mention the gun to the police in case anyone else would do so at a later time and it could come back to bite you. My question is more so about this idea, not so much the calling the police to report the crime, I would just prefer to leave the firearm out of it if possible.
 
as someone who has taken numerous reports from citizens who had to in one way or another defend themselves from assailants, I don't see why you wouldn't tell the Officer. Also, around here, most Officers will simply say "Good, he probably won't try that stupid thing again on you" :)
 
There are two boxes on the police report for them to check. One is "victim", the other is "perp." The one that calls first gets the victim box.

*Note there is no boxed marked "Caped Crusader" who gets to point guns at fellow human beings and not have the police care.

Call the police. Save "I wouldn't call the police cause I'm so tough and cool" for the gun shoppe on Saturday.
 
It is not uncommon for BGs to call the police themselves and turn you in after an encounter.

Best be the first one to call and tell your story straight rather than be pulled over by a tactical unit responding to someone with a gun.
 
A friend near San Diego had one attacker draw down on him, and fire a pistol.... he called the police, and they gave my friend a breathylizer test, and even after he showed them the spent case on the ground, could not roll their eyes enough to express their disinterest.

Another friend asked for a sheriff's officer to come with him when he moved out of a joint household where one PITA roomate had been deliberately provocative for months and had threatened him.

Sheriff's office said he would be there for 1/2 hour, but the officer deriding my friend, eye rolling from him, too.... and left after 15 minutes.

All in all, I'm not convinced that "being the first" with a complaint isn't just opening yourself up for crap from police.

--Travis--
 
If you call the cops, and have a CW, the situation can get flipped on you. If you are only going as far as brandishing, you're commiting a crime as well. Fear of death or great bodily injry doesn't mean brandishing, at least, not in Florida.

So I would say not to rat yourself out, or you could land in jail. Perp doesn't know if you're legal or not. All he sees is a gun. Leave it at that, and split.
 
Perhaps we need a THR definition of 'brandishing' published here. I suspect there are a lot of different definitions in the minds of THR's members.

I seem to recall that California's definition of 'brandishing' was: Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel...
 
Ok, as requested, my definition of "intentionally brandishing" your weapon here to keep consistant with what Massad Ayoob wrote about in the gravest extreme during repeated encounters is:to fully unholster (draw) your weapon and make if clearly visible to the bad guy, but not firing any shots.
 
Brother Storm:

Without a copy of the book at hand (I'm in California on a teaching trip at the moment), the two incidents I recall mentioning in that book occurred when I was in my early twenties, 21 and 23 to be specific.

Didn't know then what I know now.

Definitely report after you've had to draw down! The likelihood of the opponent ditching his weapons after he has fled the scene, calling in to 9-1-1 and claiming to be the victim and describing you as the perpetrator, are just too great.

We geezers learn from our ignorant youthful mistakes. Hopefully y'all can learn from us geezers.

Call in! After the hardware has come out, you're in a race to the telephone. The first to call in gets to be the victim/complainant. The second is already, by default, the perpetrator.
 
"In the Gravest Extreme" was written over 25 years ago. I believe Mas has changed his opinion on that issue now.

If nothing else, there were no such as cell phones 25 years ago, so calling the police meant actually finding a phone somewhere. Today, if you don't call the police on your cell phone, odds are someone else will instead to report *you.*
 
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A bit off center on the original posters thread, but I'll ask anyway: Mr. Ayoob, when are you going to publish another book?

Thanks,

salty.
 
Brandishing is not something I ever want to do. For LEO its necessary.
Thinking of what to do after you brandish scares me. Thinking about bradishing scares me period. I've seen and know how poeple can react when a gun is drawn.
Personally the way I see it if my gun is drawn I figure there is a 90% chance
I'm going to use it. Considering I expect to never have to use it, I figure my chance of brandishing is very slim. I'm always expecting there to be someone else around that I might not know about. They could be in another car or whatever
I agree with stretchmen

PHP: 
Fear of death or great bodily injry doesn't mean brandishing, at least, not in Florida.
If your not in fear of death or great bodily injury, you may be real quik if you brandish.
 
IMHo Brandishing is when you act like a badd@ss and show your gun in a threatening manner for no good reason other than to show off your gun. Such as some guy cuts you off in traffic so you hold your gun up to the window. THAT is brandishing. Some guy tries to rob you, you pull your weapon, that's not brandishing, that's a prudent man defending himself.

Personally I have drawn my concealed weapon into the open several times as a response to a threatening situation...never shot anyone yet thank god...
The one time I called the PD about it they never bothered to send anyone to take a report (New Mexico actually).

In every circumstance, the chain of events went like this:
1. I am doing something legal, but probably imprudent (such as entering a high crime area after dark in an area particularly appealing to criminals, such as cutting through an alley).
2. I am approached by an individual who makes some sort of demand of me usually accompanied by a threat of violence.
3. I unholster my weapon to low ready, or even merely pull back my coat to reveal the weapon, put hand on butt of gun, etc.
4. Threatening individual immediately leaves at top speed.

Is that "Brandishing"? There are those on here who will vehemently proclaim you should never unholster or reveal your ccw unless you are going to immediately open fire. However I beg to differ as it has been my experience that most goblins will not have the stones to face down an armed, aware NONvictim capable of defending themselves, and will seek easier prey. It is not my job or duty as a citizen to start gunfights. That's not the purpose of a CCW. It is my duty to get out alive and return home. A CCW doesn't make you Batman. Is this brandishing? No way.

Note: I am NOT Mas Ayoob who I have never met but respect tremendously, and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn last night. YMMV.
 
Brother Storm:

Without a copy of the book at hand (I'm in California on a teaching trip at the moment), the two incidents I recall mentioning in that book occurred when I was in my early twenties, 21 and 23 to be specific.

Didn't know then what I know now.

Definitely report after you've had to draw down! The likelihood of the opponent ditching his weapons after he has fled the scene, calling in to 9-1-1 and claiming to be the victim and describing you as the perpetrator, are just too great.

We geezers learn from our ignorant youthful mistakes. Hopefully y'all can learn from us geezers.

Call in! After the hardware has come out, you're in a race to the telephone. The first to call in gets to be the victim/complainant. The second is already, by default, the perpetrator.
Click to expand...

Straight from the horses mouth! Well, that certainly puts the contraversy to rest. I am glad I started this thread, after reading the book again this had been bothering me for a few days. All the reasons you had stated for not calling the police seemed like pretty good ones, so I really appreciate the clarification.
 
There are those on here who will vehemently proclaim you should never unholster or reveal your ccw unless you are going to immediately open fire. However I beg to differ as it has been my experience that most goblins will not have the stones to face down an armed, aware NONvictim capable of defending themselves, and will seek easier prey.
Click to expand...

I am inclined to agree. The vast majority of BGs are lazy, and have a very high survival instinct. They are out looking for ways to score money and drugs without doing any real work. Why spend 9 hours at a job when you can get the cash in 2 minutes from some other poor sap who just spent his past 9 hours at work. So when confronted with someone who is not an easy mark, they will more than likely haul ### and go out looking for another mark. They are in this to get cash, not to get killed. The sight of a gun will just make you not worth the trouble.

Now if there are multiple BGs at once, like a gang, they might be forced by a sense of machismo to keep on the attack in order to not appear weak. And there are always BGs who are just crazy and don't value even their own life. More force than just drawing will probably be necessary with groups/gangs and crazy types.


As for whether or not to call the police after any firearm related event: DO IT. Try to be as calm, civilized, rational, and even sophisticated as possible. On gun forums, people always talk about how police have a bad attitude towards CCWers. Well here is a chance to help change their mind. If police routinely have to speak to CCWers who say things like "I was bout to shoot that sonovabitch, I tell ya what.", than of course they are going to regard us as dangerous Bubbas. Act calm and civilized and not only will you probably get out of it fine, you may even help change their minds to favor CCW.

Any time you do anything firearm related in front of other people, you are an ambassador of gun-owners. Make us look good :) Not calling the police, or sounding like a jack### when you do, does NOT make us look good.
 
kind of off topic but .......he was on the phone at the time.

February 26, 2007
Man shot in Tampa bar fight
A 40-year-old man was shot and critically injured in a fight at a bar near Tampa Bay Downs race track early today.

Scott Bapatasi was injured after he got into an argument with 25-year-old Craig Avclair over cigarettes, according to a report from the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office. The altercation started inside K-D's Lounge, 13949 W Hillsborough Avenue, then continued in the parking lot.

Avclair got a gun from his vehicle and then callled 911. He apparently shot Bapatasi while he was on the phone, according to the sheriff's report.

Avclair of Safety Harbor was arrested when deputies arrived on the scene. He was charged with aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.

Bapatisi was airlifted to St. Joseph's Hospital where he was in critical condition. His address is listed as Tampa Bay Downs, where he was a seasonal worker.

The incident happened about 12:30 a.m.

February 26, 2007 in Hillsborough | Permalink
 
There is a case in PHL about a year ago that turned out badly for the defender.

The summary was that defender with an LTCF (a non criminal lawyer) was accosted by a homeless man with a knife. Defender placed his hand on his sidearm, but did not draw which inspired the assaillant to flee....straight to a phone to place a "man pointed a gun at me call".

The defender was essentially railroaded, and his best play to preserve his freedom and RKBA was to plead out to some minor charge or another.

It was a sad, BS, politically motivated case, BUT THIS IS WHAT WE FACE in some jurisdictions.
 
Defining the event and following the law

There is a world of difference bewteen "...intentionally brandishing..." and presenting one's pistol in defense of life and limb. For the prior, one goes to jail. For the latter, one should report it to the police ASAP, and complete the report. If one were threatened enough to treaten another human being's very existence, he/she has a duty to report. Re: the LEOs might make my life miserable bit...I don't buy it. I believe that most LEOs are good people and they are simply following the law. And, afterall, you have the law on your side. In sum, know the law, and follow the law.
 
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