Campus Carry and Faculty Flight

[mljdeckard]

If I had a professor promise to leave if carry was allowed on campus.....I'd ask to get it in writing.

Both of my parents are professors at a Utah university. Their offices are next to the trades department, where until a few years ago, the gunsmithing students had an indoor test chamber. This institution has become more encumbered by the beurocracy that comes with mandatory diversity studies, etc, but no one has ever said a word about guns.

I was a Criminal Justice student at WSU in Utah, and we had so many off-duty cops in the department, no one even looked twice if you were open carrying. (I was however outraged when a caller on Tom Gresham's Gun Talk this week read an editorial from a CJ professor I don't know promoting gun control.) Indeed, the hemp-wearing, tree-hugging professors I had in other departments aren't trying to leave, they are ON A MISSION to enlighten us and convince us that we need to have the government take care of us. THEY AREN'T GOING ANYWHERE. IF ONLY carrying on campus would make them leave. I would mobilize and get as many non-student carriers as possible to walk around campus open-carrying to help the process along. I would schedule shifts to ensure that during the academic day at any given time, there would be someone in the library, the student union building or the computer lab with a 1911 on their hip. Godspeed. Is there anything else we can do to convince you that this place is just too savage and unenlightened for your sensibilities?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Here's a question I've asked over and over -- most of those college students can legally carry. In Virginia, anyone who can legally be in possession of a hand gun can carry it openly. And anyone over 21 can get a permit.

How is it those same people have no record of irresponsible gun handling off campus, but suddenly become irresponsible and dangerous on campus?

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

And Alec Baldwin was going to leave the U.S. if Bush got elected the second time. Idle threats. I only wish those that give those ultimatums had the balls to back them up; but, alas, if they had balls, they might be inclined to be armed and be in charge of their own destiny......

 

[Cannonball888]

Good riddance. I'm sure he can find a job at Che Guevara University.

 

[John Wayne]

So what happens if legislation is passed, allowing students with CHLs to carry on campus, but colleges (for the sake of argument, private institutions) decide to post valid (per local laws) no carry signs?

Are they within their legal right to expel a student who violates their "no guns" policy? This could result in a $65,000 fine for some--i.e., expulsion after four years with no degree or transferrable credit.

 

[Prince Yamato]

The academic job market is not that hot (like many others). I doubt tenured folks are fleeing and that is BS if truly stated.

Exactly. If you have tenure, you aren't going anywhere. You have the most secure job on the planet. The only time professors leave their job is 1) if they don't have tenure 2) They're going to get higher pay AND tenure somewhere else or 3) They've done something that not even their tenured position will protect them from and they're going to be fired anyway.

 

[mljdeckard]

Absolutely. The "T" word is what all strive to attain.

Oh, and John Wayne, we just went through this in Utah a few years ago. Carry is allowed on campus, and the state has pre-emption. The academia at the top of the University of Utah decided that state laws are useless drivel, and they can make their own policy. They have some kind of "Academic Privilege" which supercedes state law. They even got one judge to agree with them. That judge was just blocked for nomination to the state Supreme Court because of that issue, and the Attorney General made it very plain that none of them have any authority to chuck state law just because they don't agree with it. (I look forward to law school at U of U.) In Utah at least, the signs would not be valid.

The stupid thing was, they didn't claim any control over the general public who might happen to be strolling through campus, only students and faculty. I as a non student could carry a machine gun through the student union building, and all any of them would be allowed to do would be to call campus security, or face.....(wait for it) administrative discipline.

 

[Albatross]

In Oregon there are no legal restrictions against permit holders from carrying on campus. It is against university system code, but is regularly ignored.

No one is getting shot up around here and to give you idea of how many students do carry: This year alone two students were caught. One was a marine at Western Oregon University and it got quite a bit of news. Another, which didn't receive any media attention and was handled quietly, was a student at the University of Oregon. He was drunk and was actively ripping down Obama support posters down and was witnessed urinating on the administration building.

Both of these students were given punishments, but they are both currently attending school. I'm not absolutely positive about the marine. He was suspended for a term and laughingly had to write a 10 page paper about obeying the law even if he disagreed with it (funny because he broke no law). I have heard that he has returned to class and is finishing his degree, but I don't know it for a fact. He may have transfered elsewhere.

The University of Oregon student had to attend alcohol management classes and due to his "emergency expulsion" (which was subsequently reversed) had to withdraw from his classes and retake the term. During the course of his ordeal he wasn't permitted to be on school grounds causing him to miss too many classes to pass. Now he has been accepted to the graduate school here.

Anyway, lots of permitted students carry their weapons. If you want you can read about it here: http://www.oregoncommentator.com/2009/04/23/mo-ode-opinion-columnists-mo-problems/#comments

It is a number of liberty minded students commenting on a recent anti-article published in the student daily newspaper.

 

[209]

Much like a person who lives in a state which passes a bad gun law can't just pack up and leave, I'd expect there are few college professors who can. But wouldn't be a bad thing if some of them did.

 

[Deanimator]

"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

"Hic....my roommate has a pistol, and won't be using it at this hour....hicup."

Yup....i see no potential problems.

Can anyone explain how this isn't an argument against gun OWNERSHIP... ANYWHERE?

 

[Superlite27]

"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

"Hic....my roommate has a pistol, and won't be using it at this hour....hicup."

Yup....i see no potential problems.

You mean to say "Yup....I HAVE SEEN no potential problems", don't you?

After all, most fraternity houses and private apartments are off campus where CCW holders ARE ALREADY CARRYING, so why haven't you said something about this non-existant problem already? After all, licenced CCW holders have been legally able to carry in these party houses EVER SINCE CCW WAS PASSED.

I thought you said it was a bad idea? Then where are all the drunken rampages?

Campus Carry is about CLASSROOMS where students are SOBER.

Carrying in frat houses and off campus apartments is ALREADY legal.

 

[runrabbitrun]

"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

Just another straw man argument.

 

[SaxonPig]

Don't know about other states but I taught for several years at two Utah colleges and packing on campus (legal in that state) wasn't an issue with anyone except the Liberal college presidents who insisted on having a public cow. Students and faculty couldn't have cared less. Of course, Utah is a very gun-friendly state in general.

At one college the chief of the campus police taught the CCW class on campus and there was a shooting club organized by a professor and we were reloading ammo in a classroom. Another college allowed a gun show to be held in the school gymnasium.

 

[youngda9]

If I don't get my way, I'll quit....BWAAAAAAAAAHHHHH

 

[Vern Humphrey]

So what happens if legislation is passed, allowing students with CHLs to carry on campus, but colleges (for the sake of argument, private institutions) decide to post valid (per local laws) no carry signs?

Are they within their legal right to expel a student who violates their "no guns" policy? This could result in a $65,000 fine for some--i.e., expulsion after four years with no degree or transferrable credit.

Include an absolute liability clause -- if a student is killed by an armed criminal, the college is automatically liable.

 

[Deanimator]

If I had a professor promise to leave if carry was allowed on campus.....I'd ask to get it in writing.

When I was going to a Catholic prep seminary in Chicago in the '70s, I expressed a desire to see JROTC there. One of the ultra-left non-clergy teachers angrily said that she'd quit if they ever got JROTC. I replied, "We'll really miss you."

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Back in the '70s, I was Chief of ROTC Support at Fort Benning. I supported (and visited) all 295 colleges and 600 high schools with ROTC programs. Some high-falutin' eastern colleges decided to get rid of their ROTC programs.

Now, Congress sets the number of ROTC detatchments, and the Army has a waiting list of colleges that want ROTC but can't get it. Campbell College got the first opening.

A deputaton of snotty professors called on the College president, "We don't think there should be ROTC here. We demand a faculty meetiing!"

The President said, "We're going to have ROTC or we're not going to have a college."

It warmed the cockles of my heart.

 

[Rellian]

I would mobilize and get as many non-student carriers as possible to walk around campus open-carrying to help the process along. I would schedule shifts to ensure that during the academic day at any given time, there would be someone in the library, the student union building or the computer lab with a 1911 on their hip. Godspeed.

What shift would you like me to take? (If I thought for a second it would work)

 

[scndactive]

"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

"Hic....my roommate has a pistol, and won't be using it at this hour....hicup."

Yup....i see no potential problems.

A few words from the wise come to mind.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

 

[fireman 9731]

"Hey, man, I'm wasted. It's 3AM. Whatdoya wanna do thats cool? (burp)"

"Hic....my roommate has a pistol, and won't be using it at this hour....hicup."

Yup....i see no potential problems.

Just about every off-campus house that I have been in has a shotgun leaning in the corner or a pistol on the coffee table. No problems here to speak of at all. When the beer comes out, the guns get put away someplace safe. I don't see what the difference would be in an off-campus student house compared to an on-campus dorm....

Well, let's see, college students-
A group that generally ignores
drinking age laws
driving under influence laws
downloading laws
visitation rules

But they are complying with carry laws? Really?

The reason that students comply with concealed carry laws is because there are some real ramifications if you break them! All of the ones above, (with the exception of driving under the influence) would result in a slap on the wrist comparatively. If you were caught with a gun on campus in today's political climate you would be hung out to dry. Expelled from school, a huge fine, and probably jail time...

Oooohhhh!!! I just downloaded a song.... whats gonna happen? Nothing. I just drank a beer underage.... nothing will happen. Oh I just went to my girlfriends dorm after visitation hours..... whats gonna happen? Nothing.

I'm carrying my gun in class and somebody sees it?
-Oh sh*t... I have screwed up big this time, I need a lawyer and a new school....

There is a big difference.

 

[geophysicishooter]

Well, I emailed the professor with whom I had the conversation on which the OP is based. I haven't heard back from him.

I'm not surprised, though I am a bit disappointed that he wouldn't take the time to at least respond with the standard "I guess we'll have to agree to disagree" boilerplate.

I have, though, discussed the issue with a couple other professors. Mostly they share the sentiment that it would disrupt the "learning environment" and how allowing "kids with guns" into the class room is frought with peril. One maintained the arguement that any gun brought onto campus would inevitable fall into the hands of a person intent on killing by his taking it from the concealed weapon carrier..

Through it all though, I haven't seen or heard one arguement based in facts or reality to justify the disarmament of free people in a free society..

for the LD'ers in the crowd, My value of liberty is upheld by the permitting of free people to carry about their persons the means and ability to defend themselves from transgression while denying such would negate liberty. Not even the permitting, but lacking the fear that free men will act to negate their own liberty by the mis-use or improper application of deadly force, upholds liberty. To deny the free person in a free society such means and ability based on one's own fear not only negates liberty but entrenches tyranny..

thank you. I'm open for cross..

 

[rainbowbob]

I mean, I don't care if they quit. But where would they go?

Let 'em drive cabs or work as convenience store clerks - unarmed, of course.

 

[KBintheSLC]

And Alec Baldwin was going to leave the U.S. if Bush got elected the second time. Idle threats.

What a tragic loss that would have been.

 

[Rellian]

besides, if the carrier is concealing correctly, Professor N. T. Lectuall won't even know it's there....