Can .44 special ammo benefit much from a long barrel?

[DHart]

I know that .357mag and .44mag ammo gets a huge boost in velocity and energy when fired from rifle-length barrels, but I would like to know how the much-less-powerful .44special round would benefit, if any, when fired from a carbine length barrel.

Take, for example, Speer's 200 gr. Gold Dot JHP .44 special round - it's designed for pistols, of course.

When fired through a 6" barrel, muzzel velocity and energy are 875 fps and 340 ft. lbs. energy. Not a particularly stout load for self-defense use.

Can anyone estimate with reasonably good accuracy what the velocity and energy of this particular round would be when fired from a 17" or 18.5" carbine? Would shooting it from a long barrel transform this caliber into something much more substantial for defense use than if it were fired from a 5" pistol?

I'm considering using the .44 special caliber for defense use in my .44mag lever rifle. (.44mag for home defense use is a little much.)

 

[zeke]

Chronographed velocity's of Speer Blazer 44 special 200 gdhp (am not recommending use of aluminum cases in lever action)

from 696=very close to 900 fps (892 fps)

from 16 in Marlin=1190 fps average

180 gn xtp handload, using 44 special cases

from 696=980 fps

from 16 in Marlin=almost 1290 fps

Might have several other examples, but appears even 44 special loads can gain almost 300 fps from the 16 incher. So long as the 44 specials are feeding reliably.

 

[DHart]

zeke... thanks for the data. It would seem that the .44 special would make a reasonably decent defense caliber from a carbine length rifle (like a Trapper). It would avoid the excessive penetration and heavier recoil of .44mag and possibly still give decent knock-down power.

Would you have any idea how much energy might be expected to increase with a .44 special when fired from a 16" trapper than from a 6" pistol?

Selecting the best bullet weight for .44special defense use from a 16" barrel would be the key here I guess. Good expansion without over-expanding on impact and good penetration without over-penetrating without expansion is the key...

 

[1911Tuner]

.44 Special

Howdy DHart,

I played with a .44 Trapper for a spell. Handloaded 200-grain
XTPs with Unique in .44 Special cases...don't remember the data...gave up 1250 fps easily. Accuracy was outstanding and expansion/penetration
was also very good. Think of it as a fat 10mm...

 

[zeke]

Dhart-are ya a hanloader? Have been experimenting a little with .357, 44 mag and 45 LC 16 in carbines for same purpose ya expressed. Your gonna be more limited, if having to stick with factory loads. Medium rate powders and lighter weight jhp's and sjhp's have much less concussion, and can be very accurate.


Believe pro-load has a medium loaded 44 mag with the 200 gn Speer GD, there may be others. It is unfortunate that most ammunition Company's are more inclined for highest speed possible, when it isn't always neccessary, or desirable. There should be more "midrange" defensive loads for these cartridges. The bullets are already available, even some of the older designs.

The 45 LC bullet selction for this purpose is more limited, not many lighter bullets with cannelures.

KE=(velocity in fps squared divided by 450400) times bullet weight in grains

 

[1911Tuner]

Barrel Lengths

Howdy DHart,

A couple of things to bear in mind when using revolver ammo in a carbine.

The slow-burning powders such as those used in magnum rounds will gain
the most from a longer barrel. Faster powders such as those used in
the Specials will often burn completely up before the bullet exits the muzzle. I've seen certain factory rounds produce LESS velocity from a
rifle than in a revolver.

Factory Special ammo will probably realize some increase in velocity through a 16-inch barrel, but may produce less in a 20-inch tube. Handloading the Special brass with a slower-burning powder will
level the playing field though. Hercules/Alliant 2400 is suitable in
Magnum and Special cases, as is Unique. Although both of these oldies
are considered to be obsolete by many folks today, I still consider both of
them to be right up there with the best choices for the original 3 magnum calibers...along with several others such as .45 Colt. In .45 ACP, Unique will
produce nearly perfect GI Harball-spec ballistics.

Luck!

Tuner

 

[DHart]

Excellent info, guys, I appreciate it. For the meantime, I need to stick with factory made ammo... especially for defense purposes. So I need to try to find the optimum factory load for these pistol calibers so as to achieve a good balance between expansion and peneetration when fired through a 17 or 18" 1894 barrel. Any thoughts as to what those might be? Bullet weight: light-ish, medium, or heavy-ish? Bullet type: JHP or JSP?

I know this isn't an easy exercise, trying to figure out what pistol caliber factory ammo would be optimal for defense purposes from a carbine length barrel... but I'd like to try to find a reasonable load for .357, .45Colt, .44special, and .44mag. I have a variety of factory ammo in these calibers, but no way of testing velocity nor the performance of the ammo in stopping evil doers.

Here are the factory options that I'm aware of:

.44 special:
CorBon ballistics presumed to be from PISTOL
44 Special 165 JHP Vel >>> 1150
44 Special 165 JHP Energy >>> 485

Hornady XTP - ballistics from PISTOL with 7" barrel
44 Special 180 FMJ HP Velocity >>> 1000 935
44 Special 180 FMJ HP Energy >>> 400

Winchester Super X - ballistics from PISTOL with 6.5" barrel
44 Special 200 SilvertipHP Velocity >>> 900
44 Special 200 SilvertipHP Energy >>> 360

Speer Gold Dot ballistics from PISTOL with 6" barrel
44 Special 200 GoldDotJHP Vel >>> 875
44 Special 200 GoldDotJHP Energy >>> 340

Federal HydraShok ballistics from PISTOL with 6.5" vented barrel
44 Special 200 JHP Vel >>> 900
44 Special 200 JHP Energy >>> 360

So which of these would you rely most on for defense using a 16" Trapper?

==============================================
Factory options for .45 Colt are:

CorBon ballistics presumed to be from PISTOL
45 Colt 200 JHP Vel >>> 1100
45 Colt 200 JHP Energy >>> 537

Speer Gold Dot ballistics from PISTOL with 5.5" barrel
45 Colt 250 GoldDotJHP Vel >>> 900
45 Colt 250 GoldDotJHP Energy >>> 450

Winchester Super X - ballistics from PISTOL with 5.5" barrel
45 Colt 255 SilverTipHP Vel >>> 920
45 Colt 255 SilverTipHP Energy >>> 423
===================================================
For .44magnum:

Winchester Super X - Ballistics based on RIFLE
44 Magnum 210 Silvr Tip HP Velocity >>> 1580
44 Magnum 210 Silvr Tip HP Energy >>> 1164
This ammo is 26% faster and 60% more energy from rifle than same ammo from 4" pistol.
Winchester Super X - ballistics from PISTOL with 4"vented barrel
44 Magnum 210 Silvr Tip HP Vel >>> 1250
44 Magnum 210 Silvr Tip HP Energy >>> 729

Winchester Supreme Partition Gold - ballistics from PISTOL with 6.5"vented barrel
44 Magnum 250 FMJ HP Velocity >>> 1230
44 Magnum 210 FMJ HP Energy >>> 840

Speer Gold Dot ballistics from PISTOL with 6.5" barrel
44 Magnum 210 GoldDotJHP Vel >>> 1450
44 Magnum 210 GoldDotJHP Energy >>> 980

Hornady XTP - ballistics from PISTOL with 7" barrel
44 Magnum 180 FMJ HP Velocity >>> 1550
44 Magnum 180 FMJ HP Energy >>> 960

Hornady XTP - ballistics from PISTOL with 7" barrel
44 Magnum 200 FMJ HP Velocity >>> 1500
44 Magnum 200 FMJ HP Energy >>> 999

Hornady XTP - ballistics from PISTOL with 7" barrel
44 Magnum 240 FMJ HP Velocity >>> 1350
44 Magnum 240 FMJ HP Energy >>> 971

Hornady XTP - ballistics from PISTOL with 5" barrel
44 Magnum 300 FMJ HP Velocity >>> 1150
44 Magnum 300 FMJ HP Energy >>> 881

YES... I have been doing some homework.

Now the critical question... which ones would offer the best balance of expansion and penetration from a 16" Trapper against two-legged critters with bad intent?

 

[1911Tuner]

Factory Fodder

hard to beat the Silvertips in the 16-inch barrels.

.357/145... .44Special/200....45 Colt/225 should give you a good balance of
velocity, penetration, expansion, and controllability. Silvertips often give
excellent accuracy in most guns too. YMMV, or course.

 

[zeke]

DHart-are ya looking specifically for a Win Trapper, or Marlin 1894 44 mag? Have the Marlin in .357 and .44 mag, and a Trapper in 45 LC. The Marlin's are mighty particular about COL, and somewhat picky with the wide nose hollow points. The Winchester seems not nearly as picky.

Have had very good accuracy from .357 145 gn Win silvertips in pistols, and will look and see if i tested them in carbine. Am slowly working on decent load using Rem 180 gn sjhp's, mighty impressive expansion in un-official testing (too much so at max speeds).

Don't have any experience with factory 44 mag silvertips, did not like the accuracy of Factory Win 44 special silvertips in pistol, or the low velocity. They do seem to expand readily from 3 in pistol, with very mild recoil. In factory 44 mag, would be inclined to use Horrnady 180 or 200 grn xtp loads (am certainly predjudised to HDY xtp's in general).

For less recoil and muzzle blast, would try Proloads mild version of 44 mag using the 200 gn gold Dot, for reliable feeding and accuracy. They have a website.

Have started handloading Speer's new 250 GDHP, unofficius testing has it expanding readily at 1100 fps. It is accurate and feeds reliably (so far) in Win trapper tried in. Would expect it to expand more readily at lower speeds in gelatin or water. Have not tried other light weight factory loads in the 45 LC, have too many of the original ashtrays stock piled.

 

[DHart]

zeke... my .44mag is a Marlin 1894SS. I slicked it up and tuned the extractor and it cycles everything I put in it very smoothly... including .44spl.

Since I don't reload and would only use factory ammo in a defense situation anyway, I'm interested in finding good defense loads which will perform well from the Marlin (will cut barrel to 16.5" length).

The ProLoad sounds like a good one for me to check out as .44mag has almost too much power in the rifle for defense use.

Thanks for the comments!

 

[ChristopherG]

I guess one factor for me, in thinking about an ammo choice like this, would be where you plan on having a problem. I mean to say, if you're in an apartment, or a house whose neighbor is across a 10' strip of grass, or if Jr. is in the next room, then think of a light bullet moving fast. High speed will ensure dramatic, fast expansion, which will make sure that the considerable havoc it wreaks will stay in the organism intended (assuming you hit said organism). E.g., the 185 gr XTP.

On the other hand, if you've got a bit of room in the envisioned scenario--defense of the cabin or farmhouse--step up to something a bit less concerned about overpenetration, and a bit more concerned about being absolutely sure the shot (again, assuming you hit your target) gets to and disables critical systems--like the GoldDot or Silvertip maggies.

And if animals--even sizeable dogs--might play into the mix, then the mags, no question, IMHO.

BUT: Whatever you decide to TRY, you've got to do just that--TRY it, and see if it will shoot accurately in your gun. These are all quality loads you're looking at, but guns can be a bit funny and particular about their preferences even among quality loads, and the first and most important thing (once more) is to be sure that you can hit your target.

 

[DHart]

Hey ZEKE... tell me about your Trapper in .45Colt... I saw one today for $350 and I'm tempted! Would you buy one again? How do you like it? Would you prefer a Marlin 1894? (I have several Marlin 1894's already, but no Winny Trapper and that 16" barrel is calling my name. The other option is the Winchester 1892 LTD (Miroku made), but they're about $500 more! Undoubtedly, the 92's are excellent rifles, but very spendy.

 

[zeke]

DHart-The 54 LC Winny was first pistol caliber bought, bout 7-8 years ago. It has a very nice walnut stock, plain black non-hooded square post front, and the rear sight is attached with screws (plus elevator ramp). The action is much looser than the Marlins, and the lever does not have a very positive catch. It has a cross bolt safety, which does not bother me too much asthetically. It has the SMOOTHEST barrel of ANY new rifle got to date. Absolutely no leading with the hard cast bullets tried so far (Magnus). It is very accurate to 50 yards, with almost anything put through it. It does not dissample very easily, and haven't had the lever out of it yet. Marlin's easy dissembly is very nice feature, allowing cleaning from the breach. Corbon's 300 gn jsp's get about 1450 fps from it (not defensive loads, unless black bear). Originally had this rifle sighted in for 185 gn Golden Sabers and 200 gn Ashtray's (originals). These shot to same poi as a lead load used. Pretty light loads, but useful for the limited intention. After more testing, may change to heavier load with the 250 gn Gold Dot. There may be a distinct advantage to this heavier bullet with huge hp. Gold Dot's tend to hold together quite well, and Speer made wise choice to limit lenght of bullet in front of cannelure.

Marlin made a limited number of 16 in 45 LC's with ballard rifling. They seem to go for $450-$500 dollars new, when ya can find them. Never had the opportunity plus the cash, when occasionaly seeing them on GunsAmerica.com

Don't have any experience with 1892's or Browning styles.

Have become very pleased with carbines and open sights in general. For me (short arms, short height,light build), they are easier to actually hit something with freehand (out to 100 yards).

Marlin levers owned include 1894 cp's in 357 and 44 mag, 45-70 guide gun, 444 outfitter and a 375 winchester.

 

[SOT_II]

Yes

The guns below are VERY effective at pest control of all sorts. Note the for full effectiveness handloading to keep the bullets subsonic is a good idea.

 

[DHart]

SOT... are those .44 spl. rifles? Interesting look.