The optimal CQB firearm

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Evil Monkey

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The object is to have a shoulder fired rifle/smg that uses a round in between your typical pistol round and intermediate rifle round.

Something like a rimless 357mag or 44mag. The goal is to use a round far more capable than 9mm-45acp-10mm-etc but with much less flash and blast than 5.56mm-7.62mm-5.45mm from a 7-10 inch barrel.

Would a 357mag or 44mag have tolerable muzzle flash and blast from a base barrel length of 8 inches or would it be as bad as rifle rounds like the 5.56mm and 7.62mm soviet from a short barrel?

Are there any rimless cartridges out there that mimic the 357 and 44mag in muzzle energy?

I've seen pics of Navy SEALs, I believe, in Afghanistan using the Mk18 10.5" M4 and they all seem to have suppressors on them because of the noise when firing in enclosed spaces. This seems to be a serious defect in the short barreled assault rifle. I'm not saying they should be using 357mag SMG's but I'm trying to have something to work with here and improve upon it for CQB engagements with out excessive muzzle blast and flash and the urgent need for a suppressor.
 
The 357 and 44 magnums won't be any more effective than 9mm or 45acp if you're still stuck using FMJ ammo, which is what the military would be using.

If you've got the option of hollowpoints, then a 9mm from a carbine-length barrel is actually on par with 357 out of a handgun barrel. The 45acp is no slouch either. The 44 mag would be overkill as it would likely overpenetrate even with hollowpoints.
 
M1 carbine comes to mind. But, the round is barely as strong a 357, IIRC.

from a 7-10 inch barrel.
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It could be the greatest weapon ever but that will doom it. If it has a stock has a barrel under 16", it is considered an SBR and then NFA rules apply, tax stamps, yadda yadda yadda... commercial death.
 
M1 carbine comes to mind. But, the round is barely as strong a 357, IIRC.
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Quite a bit more than a .357, in fact. 977ft. pounds of energy as opposed to around 575 from the magnum (going from memory, but I'm pretty sure I'm accurate).

The .30 Carbine is a superb CQB round, but I think 5.56 nato is more capable, especially in the newer heavy tactical loadings. If you're going to carry a carbine, that is.
 
M1 carbine comes to mind. But, the round is barely as strong a 357, IIRC.
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Quite a bit more than a .357, in fact. 977ft. pounds of energy as opposed to around 575 from the magnum (going from memory, but I'm pretty sure I'm accurate).
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I think you are recalling correctly for a .357 from a handgun barrel. From a 16 to 18 inch carbine barrel you easily get 1000 ft-pounds. Specialized carbine loads (like from Buffalo Bore) max out at maybe 1200 ft-pounds.

Any way, for the Optimal CQB Firearm, how about…the F2000? With a 16” barrel it is something 28 inches long, and the 5.56mm round hits harder and any of the SMG rounds suggested above. It is fully ambidextrous all the time, so no problem switching from left to right cover. And you don’t lose anything when you have to fight outside the buildings.
 
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A MP5 styled sbr chambered in 10mm would be the best CQB. Using Double Tap Ammo the balistics are amazing and would provide the best penetration.

If you are looking for something more then the PS90 comes to mind. SBR and you will be all set great size and magazine capacity.
 
The ultimate CQB firearm is the undoubtable 12 gauge 00 buckshot.
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For three to five shots, then you're screwed unless you're real quick to the secondary weapon.

To the OP: I'm not sure whether we are talking about military or civilian weapons here.

For a military gun with FMJ, a half dozen rounds on full auto makes up for a lot of deficiencies in ammo. The M3 Greasegun, MP40 and P90 are perfect examples of that.

For civie use, full auto can be problematic with high cost and legal paperwork, but we can use hollow points.
 
Can I get an MP5 chambered in 12 gauge, loaded with reduced recoil 00 buck?
 
Either the Atchisson Assault 12 (Yes I know it has a new maker and a new name, but the original just sounds meaner) or a Cooper Thumper (Which would not be legal for widespread private ownership, being legally a SBR.)
 
Knights Armament Company (www.knightarmco.com) has the hottest ticket for CQB in the KAC PDW 6x35mm. But I don't think it's available for civilians.

For non-paperwork civilian applications? The collapsable stock Mec Tech for a GLOCK 10mm might fill the bill nicely. Also, a modern M1 carbine (Auto Ordnance) with a modern bullet-style & a tactical stock is wayyy overdue.
 
The pro seem to think an M-4 or a short AK with upgraded sights is the 'ultimate CQB' weapon. I'm inclined to believe it, although I am bad news with an 870 in real close....
 
I agree with the 12 Gauge comments except with slugs instead of 00 buck and a 7 round magazine instead of a standard 3-5. Slugs penetrate much better than 00 buck and have a close range stopping power that is unrivalved.

The .30 carbine produces slightly more powerful ft/# (about 5%) than the .357 magnum out of the same size barrel. One would think that this would make an excellent CQB weapon. It is very reliable in the M1.

Not having hollow points does hurt the round for stopping power but practically no manufacturers make any CQB weapons in .30 carbine anyway. (although the M1 would be pretty handy in that role) An exploration of the potential of the .30 Carbine cartridge would be interesting.
 
John Farnham thinks the .30 Carbine and Cor-Bon DPX with Barnes copper hollowpoints is a decent small weapon. Tim Mullin thinks well of the "Advisor's Gun" as seen in early days in Vietnam; an M1 carbine with barrel cut just far enough in front of the foreend to remount the front sight and in a M1A1 paratrooper's folding stock.
But that is old tech and will not do as well as plastic, eh?
 
It's hard to beat an M4 with a 10.5" to 12" barrel, an EOTech, and (much more important than whatever weapon) the skill to actually use it. 30 rounds in the gun, controls properly situated for speedy operation, mag changes are fast and easy, recoil is negligible and follow up shots or transitioning to additional targets is super quick, etc etc.

If you've got reservations about 5.56mm, use the same thing in 6.8mm Rem SPC.
 
The pro seem to think an M-4 or a short AK with upgraded sights is the 'ultimate CQB' weapon.
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I think that mostly has to do with logistics. Since the service rifle is 5.56, the bean counters want that round used for everything (M249 the replaced the BAR, the M4 replaced the Mp5, the Thompson, M3 Greasegun, M1 Carbine, M2 Carbine).

Personally, I think the M2 carbine with a USGI 30 round mag would work just as good as a Colt Commando.
 
Personally, I think the M2 carbine with a USGI 30 round mag would work just as good as a Colt Commando.
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It's not just about the bullet.

For an M2 to compete with an M4 it would need rails. Adjustable LOP stock. Quicker mag release. A better safety (and one that incorporates a selector switch). One thing a CQB gun needs more than wallop is sheer speed, and it's hard to beat an M4 for sheer and simple speed of handling.

Don't get me wrong, M1 carbines are great, handy guns and with a 30 round mag were probably the next best CQB gun of their day (besides the StG-44), if one recognizes that CQB can turn into a 100-200 meter gun in a moment. But they have a lot of ergonomic liabilities compared to more modern options like an M4.
 
The goal is to use a round far more capable than 9mm-45acp-10mm
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What kind of a CQB SMG would use a round more capable than a .45 or 10mm? An mp5 chambered in 10mm would be a sweet beast. The greese guns were heavy, but pretty dang nasty. I don't know what you would think would be more capable than that, but that is pretty capable if you ask me.

Shotguns are pretty usefull for CQB as well. Or maybe an m-4 with a shotgun combo under. YEAH!!!

Something like a rimless 357mag or 44mag
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.

A 44 mag SMG!!! I want one of those!!! hmm... or do I?
A .357 mag is pretty close to the ballistic equivallent to the 10mm by the way.
 
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