HorseSoldier
Member
357 Sig would just be another submachinegun. Won't do anything a 7.62x25 PPSh-41 didn't do 60 years ago.
The optimal CQB firearm
- Thread starter Evil Monkey
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Alpine Storm
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- Dec 3, 2008
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Although a 9mm out of a carbine is really clipping, my RRA 9mm has a tendency to double feed. To be honest, I trust the action for which a round is design more than a modified action such as mine. The m1 will feed with a great bit more reliability, and will do more damage. Put all the rails, and bs aside, I would just feel safer with one.
Beagle-zebub
Member
Less cumbersome during those quick getaways, for when your ARVN guys bug out.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the PPSh--it had ballistics rivalling those of equal-length M1 carbines, lovely controllability on auto, and the capability to take a 71-round drum. Like the carbine round, it'll penetrate a Kevlar helmet or level II body armor if it's FMJ, and will put a serious hurtin' on something in HP.
Kind of Blued
Member
GregGry
Member
Ok I will arm chair commando here a bit:
My arm chair commando opinion:
Most of what is suggested here wont work on dragon skin or other more modern body armor. Not to mention body armor doesn't cover the face. If we are to assume either no armor at all or light armor, then I say the shotgun is king. If you want more capacity then the average 6 to 8 rounds a pump shotgun holds, use the mini buckshot shells. However with any moderate training there is no reason you couldn't hit something in a QCB situation with 7 shots. Unless were are talking horror movies (we aren't right? )
If the pellets don't stop the threat you shoot for the head. I don't think that would be an issue since many buckshot loads penetrate just as good as 9mm rounds http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gauge2.75inchmag.html
A rifle like a ar-15 wouldn't be bad for QCB work, but at QCB range its not going to be more effective then a 12ga shotgun if we assume in both cases the pull of a trigger lands a hit direct center mass.
My shotgun holds 7+1, and the pipes always loaded. In a QCB scenario there is no way I would miss with 8 shots.
I don't know about that. I have shot 300 rounds of 357 mag in a sitting with just ear plugs in on an indoor range. It wasn't bad at all. However at the same range I shot my ar-15 and with just plugs in it was way louder then even .44 mag. It sounded like someone was hitting a sledge hammer on a steel bench that was right next to your ear. Other people on the range were covering their ears when they had plugs in.
My arm chair commando opinion:
Most of what is suggested here wont work on dragon skin or other more modern body armor. Not to mention body armor doesn't cover the face. If we are to assume either no armor at all or light armor, then I say the shotgun is king. If you want more capacity then the average 6 to 8 rounds a pump shotgun holds, use the mini buckshot shells. However with any moderate training there is no reason you couldn't hit something in a QCB situation with 7 shots. Unless were are talking horror movies (we aren't right? )
If the pellets don't stop the threat you shoot for the head. I don't think that would be an issue since many buckshot loads penetrate just as good as 9mm rounds http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gauge2.75inchmag.html
A rifle like a ar-15 wouldn't be bad for QCB work, but at QCB range its not going to be more effective then a 12ga shotgun if we assume in both cases the pull of a trigger lands a hit direct center mass.
Kind of Blued
Member
If you can't hit a badguy from <21 feet with any of the 81 buckshot pellets that can come out of a 12 gauge, you should have just rubbed your slippers on the carpet really fast and told him to touch your finger.
GregGry
Member
^^ Thats funny 
LaEscopeta
Member
.
Table 2. SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)
.410 Bore 28" barrel 150dB
26" barrel 150.25dB
18 " barrel 156.30dB
20 Gauge 28" barrel 152.50dB
22" barrel 154.75dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB
26" barrel 156.10dB
18 " barrel 161.50dB
CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA
.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 " barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 " barrel 163.2dB
.375 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB
CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA
.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB
But despite the lower decibel level of a .223 rifle vs. a .357 Mag pistol, many people (like me) perceive the .223 as loader, because the small rifle round has a higher pitch, mostly due to a good portion of the noise coming from sonic boom of the bullet.
www.keepandbeararms.com/downloads/SoundAdvice.doc
Table 2. SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)
.410 Bore 28" barrel 150dB
26" barrel 150.25dB
18 " barrel 156.30dB
20 Gauge 28" barrel 152.50dB
22" barrel 154.75dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB
26" barrel 156.10dB
18 " barrel 161.50dB
CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA
.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 " barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 " barrel 163.2dB
.375 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB
CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA
.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB
But despite the lower decibel level of a .223 rifle vs. a .357 Mag pistol, many people (like me) perceive the .223 as loader, because the small rifle round has a higher pitch, mostly due to a good portion of the noise coming from sonic boom of the bullet.
woodybrighton
member
L85a2 with bayonet kill them a close quarter or mess them up from 600m away its compact enough to do the job
Jenrick
Member
The main issue I've got with a shottie in CQB work is that it's not as fast to transition through multiple targets as the AR platform. Now a good pistol grip and adjustable stock coupled with a an semi-auto shotgun sure make it faster, but not as fast.
A full power load of buck or slugs in is just going to have more recoil then a full power 5.56 round, no arguments to that I'm guessing. The recoil slows down your engagements if you have to fire multiple rounds, and that means you're slower overall on multiple targets. Is one shell all that's needed? No idea, but I'm off the keep shooting till they drop school, and that may mean 2-3 shells, or 5-8 5.56 rounds. I can accurately place those 5.56 rounds faster then I can those shells. Additionally to have a shottie be as compact as an M4 you're only going to be able to have 5 or so shells in the tube. In the civilain/LE context the odds of burning that in a fight are fairly low, but I can still come up with several instances.
Do I think a shotgun is a bad CQB choice in the civilian/LE world? Heck no, however I think a pistol caliber carbine loaded with a good SD round is just as effective. I think an AR is more effective.
Far as the optimal CQB round you want something with minimal recoil to allow fast multiple engagements. I'd say beyond the 5.56 being loud it's a pretty decent round for the job. Sure 7.62 leaves bigger holes, but is VERY uncomfortable to be in a room when someone touches one of those off unsuppressed. A low powered ~.30-.50 cal cartridge would seem to be the best of both worlds for CQB work. Not to bad on the recoil end, and a nice big hole. What that cartridge would be I haven't a clue.
-Jenrick
A full power load of buck or slugs in is just going to have more recoil then a full power 5.56 round, no arguments to that I'm guessing. The recoil slows down your engagements if you have to fire multiple rounds, and that means you're slower overall on multiple targets. Is one shell all that's needed? No idea, but I'm off the keep shooting till they drop school, and that may mean 2-3 shells, or 5-8 5.56 rounds. I can accurately place those 5.56 rounds faster then I can those shells. Additionally to have a shottie be as compact as an M4 you're only going to be able to have 5 or so shells in the tube. In the civilain/LE context the odds of burning that in a fight are fairly low, but I can still come up with several instances.
Do I think a shotgun is a bad CQB choice in the civilian/LE world? Heck no, however I think a pistol caliber carbine loaded with a good SD round is just as effective. I think an AR is more effective.
Far as the optimal CQB round you want something with minimal recoil to allow fast multiple engagements. I'd say beyond the 5.56 being loud it's a pretty decent round for the job. Sure 7.62 leaves bigger holes, but is VERY uncomfortable to be in a room when someone touches one of those off unsuppressed. A low powered ~.30-.50 cal cartridge would seem to be the best of both worlds for CQB work. Not to bad on the recoil end, and a nice big hole. What that cartridge would be I haven't a clue.
-Jenrick
SpeedAKL
Member
Those decibel measures never made sense to me when compared with real-life perception. I've fired both a .357 and a .44 Mag, the .357 was loud but nothing like a centerfire rifle. The .44 Mag was considerably louder but no less so than a .30-06, .270, etc.
That chart shows that .45ACP and .30-06 are roughly the same in terms of noise when fired from typical guns. I've fired both of those rounds numerous times, and .45ACP is nowhere near as loud as .30-06, not even close.
That chart shows that .45ACP and .30-06 are roughly the same in terms of noise when fired from typical guns. I've fired both of those rounds numerous times, and .45ACP is nowhere near as loud as .30-06, not even close.
innerpiece
Member
Id go with the HK UMP in .45ACP... for a general use, pistol caliber CQB "rifle".
but then again, theres a tool for EVERY job. and CQB situation will differ in weapon requirements, alot!
ip.
but then again, theres a tool for EVERY job. and CQB situation will differ in weapon requirements, alot!
ip.
innerpiece
Member
PS, Db is kind of misleading, as the tone of the Db, Hz, is what can make one of two "bangs" with the same Db, sound different, or louder..
Lower Hz, carries more SPL, Sound pressure level, but is less disturbing to the ear as a higher Hz tone of the same Db level..
ip.
Lower Hz, carries more SPL, Sound pressure level, but is less disturbing to the ear as a higher Hz tone of the same Db level..
ip.
david_the_greek
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- Nov 2, 2005
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- 533
seconding the info on the FBI holding a majority of 10mm MP5's. bet thats one bag Mofo to be on the receiving end of
jerryrigger
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- Aug 15, 2008
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- 82
In the early days of SFOD-Delta, the guys tended to use 1911s for most of their CQB work. Now, there are different situations to consider and a different tool for each situation, but these guys had a few important reasons for this choice. First, it was/is very easy to handle/maneuver in tight spots (read, airplane cabin etc). Second, the round was much less likely to go through a target and hit a civilian/hostage/penetrate the cabin of a plane, but still had sufficient energy etc. at close range to cause damage, even to a target wearing some type of body armor, although this was not a primary concern back then because body armor was not as common in the world as it is today. Third, these guys shot ALOT...they were (and are) some of the most, if not the most proficient guys in this type of combat in the world. They were good enough that they could use pretty much any weapon in CQB with an excellent result.
So, my conclusion would be that it totally depends on the scenario, especially if hostages/civilians are present. In that case, it is more likely that a round that will not be likely to overpenetrate or go though a target is a much more likely choice, in a weapon that will be easy to maneuver and quick to get off follow up shots, because the likelihood of a target being shot only once in this situation is very slim because they need to go down, and fast. If hostages aren't present, or there is a significant possibility that the targets will be wearing armor, or if there is a likelihood of longer-range engagement during the mission, a carbine 5.56mm is probably a more viable option.
In a real world-type scenario for today, it is probably likely that if we were to see the kit for a SEAL team tasked to a mission in Afghanistan versus the kit for a SEAL team tasked to retake a cruise ship like the Achille Lauro back in the 80's, the following differences would likely be present: the guys in Aghanistan would likely have weapons that would be viewed more traditionally as Army weapons like M4's (or possibly some variant like the HK-416 that SFOD-D has been using) firing 5.56, with a squad machine gunner with an M249 and a DMR-type guy with a longer-range weapon like a modified M14/M1A. The guys on the cruise ship would likely have a more MP5-ish weapon like a UMP or possibly a 9mm MP5, both with all the bells and whistles you can imagine. One or more of them may also have a small 12ga shotgun, which would likely be more for breaching-type purposes than CQB, but might get used should the situation dictate its use. They would probably also have a sniper-type guy or two set up at strategic locations to provide cover or intervene in not-so-likely situations. Weapons like the PS90 or some very short 5.56 variants might find themselves into this situation, especially is body armor could be present or if the user just feels more comfortable with that weapon, but I don't know much about that type of choice. People always say SOCOM guys get whatever they want, and to some extent that is probably true, but it is probably true to a much greater extent that they get what their commanders want them to have.
Just some thoughts...
So, my conclusion would be that it totally depends on the scenario, especially if hostages/civilians are present. In that case, it is more likely that a round that will not be likely to overpenetrate or go though a target is a much more likely choice, in a weapon that will be easy to maneuver and quick to get off follow up shots, because the likelihood of a target being shot only once in this situation is very slim because they need to go down, and fast. If hostages aren't present, or there is a significant possibility that the targets will be wearing armor, or if there is a likelihood of longer-range engagement during the mission, a carbine 5.56mm is probably a more viable option.
In a real world-type scenario for today, it is probably likely that if we were to see the kit for a SEAL team tasked to a mission in Afghanistan versus the kit for a SEAL team tasked to retake a cruise ship like the Achille Lauro back in the 80's, the following differences would likely be present: the guys in Aghanistan would likely have weapons that would be viewed more traditionally as Army weapons like M4's (or possibly some variant like the HK-416 that SFOD-D has been using) firing 5.56, with a squad machine gunner with an M249 and a DMR-type guy with a longer-range weapon like a modified M14/M1A. The guys on the cruise ship would likely have a more MP5-ish weapon like a UMP or possibly a 9mm MP5, both with all the bells and whistles you can imagine. One or more of them may also have a small 12ga shotgun, which would likely be more for breaching-type purposes than CQB, but might get used should the situation dictate its use. They would probably also have a sniper-type guy or two set up at strategic locations to provide cover or intervene in not-so-likely situations. Weapons like the PS90 or some very short 5.56 variants might find themselves into this situation, especially is body armor could be present or if the user just feels more comfortable with that weapon, but I don't know much about that type of choice. People always say SOCOM guys get whatever they want, and to some extent that is probably true, but it is probably true to a much greater extent that they get what their commanders want them to have.
Just some thoughts...
MTMilitiaman
Member
Personally, I am with Sammy Jackson on this, "AK-47, when you absolutely, positively have to kill every [ear muffs] in the room, accept no substitutes."
As a lefty, I find the AK to be ergonomically better suited to me than the M4. I like the 7.62x39 round, esp for sub-200 yard engagements. That Yugo M67 stuff is awesome. It does nasty things to flesh and bone, yet retains the ability to penetrate most types of body armor. It may not be ideal for civilian defensive purposes, however. For that, I'd opt for the Uly 8m3 projectile Wolf loads in their MC line. I doubt if any 5.56 on the market can touch it for terminal effect up close.
These days, you can put about all the rails you can use on an AK, as well as taking your pick of stock and pistol grip options. With a good reflex sight, white light, and a vertical foregrip, it's hard to think of a better weapon to go through a doorway with. It is absolutely reliable, and with the right ammunition, pretty final when it speaks.
As a lefty, I find the AK to be ergonomically better suited to me than the M4. I like the 7.62x39 round, esp for sub-200 yard engagements. That Yugo M67 stuff is awesome. It does nasty things to flesh and bone, yet retains the ability to penetrate most types of body armor. It may not be ideal for civilian defensive purposes, however. For that, I'd opt for the Uly 8m3 projectile Wolf loads in their MC line. I doubt if any 5.56 on the market can touch it for terminal effect up close.
These days, you can put about all the rails you can use on an AK, as well as taking your pick of stock and pistol grip options. With a good reflex sight, white light, and a vertical foregrip, it's hard to think of a better weapon to go through a doorway with. It is absolutely reliable, and with the right ammunition, pretty final when it speaks.
Evil Monkey
member
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2006
- Messages
- 1,486
I'm right handed so the m4 plaform works well for me. Then one time I shouldered it like a lefty, I just stood there like...oh my god what do I do now. LOL
Makes the AK look like a SCAR.
Mass-Diver
Member
For the civilian world, I think it's hard to beat a 9mm carbine. The average BG isn't going to wearing body armor. The key is to hit him. A low recoiling, easy to shoot 9mm loaded with +P HPs would get the job done.
Kind of Blued
Member
I forgot about this one too. If that were a real can instead of a fake one to make it 16", it'd be a lot shorter, lighter, and quieter. They also started making 30-round .45 ACP mags for it.
Click Click Boom
Member
9x25 dillon with a rifle bullet.....
alemonkey
Member
I've never shot one, but I think one of the Saiga 12 gauges converted to AK format would be just about the perfect close quarter weapon. All the power of a 12 with buckshot or slugs, with a high cap mag.
Bill_Rights
Member
Here's your baby, if you like older women....
50 rounds of .45 ACP, 10.5" barrel at Thompson/Auto Ordnance. Her longer legged sisters are available at the same site, different pages.
50 rounds of .45 ACP, 10.5" barrel at Thompson/Auto Ordnance. Her longer legged sisters are available at the same site, different pages.
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