The optimal CQB firearm

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Re Carbines.....

M&S numbers for onestops on GI ball were 79 percent, Winchester JSPs were tops with 88 percent one shot stops.

For comparison the Winchester commercial 55 grain FMJ .223 ( some think the closest to M193 that is not so marked) runs at 83 percent and SS109 runs at 96 percent

Now you just have to decide if the Marshall and Sanow numbers are actually meaningful.

To paraphrase a couple of Korean War vets I knew "If someone bent on hurting you is in grenade throwing range, why would you only shoot them once?" Both used the M-1 Carbine in combat on more than one occassion and both liked it BTW.

I seem to recall that a guy named LaRue modified a M-1 Carbine to fire the
.45 Magnum ( or was it .451 Magnum?) used in the LAR Grizzly or some other thumb sized .45 hunting round. Reduced round count of course, and some folks said it was Thumper.

I have also been told that some folks had M-1 Carbines modified to shoot a .357 pistol bullet from a cut down .223 case and that the same ammo could be used in a modified for rimless S&W revolver with Moon clips. Loads were appearntly like the .357 revolver's. Never seen such, but heard of it. Not sure you could make the cartridges. But I seem to recall that Guns and Ammo magazine made a souped up 9 silly meter doing just that and that such is the basis of the currrent 9x23 mm rounds.

BTW besides the Contender and Ruger Blackhawk the .30 Carbine was also used in an Isreali police revolver and a semi auto called the Kimble and one of the Auto Mag II (or so) offerings.

I often wished some one would have made and Enforcer length Carbine( pistol gripped only stock with 10.5 inch barrel) with a folding stock. Yes it would be an SRB. But if it was made from scratch rather than starting with a registered rifle reciever the transfer tax would be but $5 rather than $200. Think one of those afore meantioned custom chamberings. Talk about a great car gun.....and you would have a pretty stamp, too.

-Bob Hollingsworth
 
I'd also chime in for the M1 Carbine. There's a lot of bones in the dirt at the hands of the .30 Carbine. With today's loading potential, one would think that an Ultimak fitted M1/M2 Carbine Paratrooper would be a formidable weapon indeed....
 
What is it with the M1 carbine? Seems incredibly popular, and yet performance wise it's barely a handgun round unless it comes out of a long tube. A 9mm out of an 18inch barrel will match it with similar weight bullets.

It's not what I'd call an ideal CQB or any other weapon.

This is my idea of CQB

m1s90.jpg
 
I'd have to go with the 12 Gauge, slugs and buck shot. I think even if up against body armor someone hit center of mass with a slug at close range is going to be out of the fight for a couple of minuets if not longer.
 
What is it with the M1 carbine? Seems incredibly popular, and yet performance wise it's barely a handgun round unless it comes out of a long tube. A 9mm out of an 18inch barrel will match it with similar weight bullets.
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110gr bullet at 2000fps? 9mm won't do that.

For an M2 to compete with an M4 it would need rails. Adjustable LOP stock. Quicker mag release. A better safety (and one that incorporates a selector switch).
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I don't think rails are necessary. Just need a way to mount a light. The mag release is fine on the M1 carbine. It's just like the one on the AR. The safety is good too, right at the trigger guard, the later flip safety prevents confusion with the mag release.
 
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See http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

.357 magnum has vastly more muzzle "blast" (measured in db's) than .223.
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I don't think that stands true when you compare those rounds with the same barrel length.

While a .357 magnum pistol is definately loud .223/5.56X45 pistols are VERY loud. I would be willing to bet that a .357 magnum carbine with an 18" barrel is not as load as a .223 carbine.
 
Easy to Explain, Hard to Understand...

GunTech, the interest in the M1 is because some knowledgable folks have experienced some impressive performance from both the caliber AND the carbine. By my understanding, the oft-repeated stories of .30 Carbine rounds "bouncing off" Korean winter clothing is popular hogwash. And there's NO 9mm load out of ANY length barrel that's gonna' match it. A close friend was an early Special Forces Advisor in Vietnam ('67-'69). He was a BIG fan of the M1 Carbine & said his "Tiger" unit preferred them to AKs, Greaseguns, Combat Shotguns, etc. The weight, availability, mag capacity, effectiveness & reliablity seem an ideal platform from which to now build a PDW.

With substantially more power & range than any modern, conventional pistol-caliber carbine (MP5, etc.), a proven action & great handling, I can't understand why someone hasn't "modernized" a weapon based on the M1 Carbine in the same way that the M14 has been "modernized" from a retired, parts-bin warhorse into a modern, mainstay battle rifle capable of filling the long-range power gap left open by the 5.56 M4.

The idea of taking a new Auto Ord M1 barrelled-action & starting from scratch to create a newly designed PWD just somehow makes SENSE to me. Maybe a suppressed bullpup or SBR setup with combat light-mounting capability. Keep the weight below 6 lbs., keep the price below $700, and have some fun. (Okay, okay...I KNOW the budget get busted in a hurry when we start adding suppressors)

Oh, by the way, that's one BAD A$$ Shotgun you've got there.
 
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Does anyone make a decent 30 cal bullet for the carbine? Only thing i have seen is FMJ and round nose SP.

I ran some numbers, 9mm +P vs 30 cal carbine. Hornady 115 gn with 7.4gn of Alliant pistol powder does 1725 fps from an 18 inch bbl for 767 ft-lbs. It's pretty easy to get 1950 fps from a 30 caliber carbine with a 110 for 908 ft-lbs.

The big downside seems to be lack of bullets for the carbine.

Just for comparison sake, a 10mm will throw at 155gn bullet at only 1680 fps fpr 980 ft-lbs. Load 10mm up to the igh end and it can trow that same 155 at carbine velocities for almost 1200 ft-lbs.

I'm starting to see the appeal of the MP-5/10 even with it's short 8 inch barrel.
 
Wasn't the purpose of going to 5.56 for CQB because of the possibility of the BG wearing armor which would defeat most of those pistol rounds (and probably buckshot)? I think even IIIA will stop .44 mag.
There are the new itty-bitty penetrator rounds like the P90 and MP7 use, although I'm not sure how effective they are on BG's who are not wearing armor compared to bigger rounds.
Does anybody make a short, integrally suppressed AR upper in 5.56? Something like the GemTech Talon? I doubt a 5.56 could get the velocity up in something like that though.
 
There was development of a 10mm MP5. But I'm not sure if they were ever released. I know they didn't last long. If memory serves, the caliber was VERY hard on both the gun AND the shooter in full-auto fire, the heat build-up was a large techno-challenge, and the increased weight made an already hefty weapon almost cumbersome...but other than that, "the numbers" said it was perfect.
 
I don't think rails are necessary. Just need a way to mount a light. The mag release is fine on the M1 carbine. It's just like the one on the AR. The safety is good too, right at the trigger guard, the later flip safety prevents confusion with the mag release.
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For a military CQB gun? Light, place to mount an AimPoint or EOTech or similar, and a forward handgrip are probably the minimum features you'd need. At least if the goal is to make the weapon as fast handling as possible. Really needs a completely redesigned stock based of the M1A1 pattern.

As for the safety, it's poorly sited for a right handed shooter since it requires using the trigger finger to engage and disengage it. And it's more generally poorly sited in that it's in a vague location for instinctive use. To compete with the AR it needs to be what the AR (and various other weapons) has -- placed for thumb sweeping and working intuitively and instinctively. I've never tried it but I'm completely certain that on a timer, my USGI M1 carbine would never beat my issue M4 from the low ready for a controlled pair.

Wouldn't hurt to try and make the charging handle ambidextrous or, even better, shift it to the left side for easy manipulation with the non-firing hand.

Even after all that, you've got a gun that requires a whole lot of finesse and thinking (rather than just pointing and shooting) if/when CQB turns into a 100+ meter engagement.
 
The .44 AMP (aka .44 Auto Mag) would be cool for CQC with a 300 grain solid at around 975 ft/s. Easily suppressed.

A nifty and modern gas action in a user-adjustable and configurable ergonomic package.

...
 
Yes, the FBI has 1300 or so MP5/10 SMGs in inventory. But according to the HKPRO website, both the MP5/10 & the MP5/40 have been discontinued. And, by what I understand, the most elite of previous MP5 (9mm) users are now moving toward other selections. I would guess SBR models of the M4. Does anyone know for sure? (and I DO mean FOR SURE, not some Rogue Warrior, Tom Clancey rumor)
 
The big downside seems to be lack of bullets for the carbine.
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I'll concede to that point. But the softpoints that are available seem to do quite well. Which was part of the reason I was asking if we were talking about military or civilian weapons. Military uses FMJ regardless of the caliber.
 
Yes, the FBI has 1300 or so MP5/10 SMGs in inventory. But according to the HKPRO website, both the MP5/10 & the MP5/40 have been discontinued. And, by what I understand, the most elite of previous MP5 (9mm) users are now moving toward other selections.
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HK decided to discontinue the larger caliber MP5s because 1) the 10mm wasn't seen as profitable and 2) the UMP is cheaper to make and somewhat more ergonmic. Unfortunately, most information is that the UMP is a step-down from the MP5 in terms of reliability and durability.

Endusers are going to M4s and other weapons because of the improved ballistics of the round, combined with the fact that HK is notoriously bad in terms of customer service, even for military/LE units.
 
Contact Olympic Arms. They make 9 mm and .40 S&W blowback operated AR-15 type carbines that use Glock magazines. Mount a red dot on top of one of those and you have a pretty good CQB tool. On top of that, both your pistol AND carbine would then use the same ammo AND same magazines. A win-win situation.
 
Rimless .357 magnum, I would think .357 sig would fit the bill nicely as an intermediate cartridge from a short barreled cqb rifle.
 
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