doubleh
Member
None of mine can but neither can my 1911s although they do tighter groups than the striker guns. I have a real sneaky suspicion that the problem is me and not the guns. 
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Can a polymer striker-fired pistol shoot 1" groups at 25yds?
- Thread starter Trey Veston
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LiveLife
Member
Most pistols have repeatable mechanical accuracy greater than what most humans are capable of.sneaky suspicion that the problem is me and not the guns.
That's why we have good range days and bad range days.
doubleh
Member
Yes, and the older I become the more frequent the bad days become. Such is the price of living.
https://www.youtube.com/user/brokosok
This guys YouTube videos are all about accuracy of striker fired pistols. The walthers shoot amazing
This guys YouTube videos are all about accuracy of striker fired pistols. The walthers shoot amazing
Walt Sherrill
Member
Whether a gun can shoot 2" groups at 25 yards has less to do with whether the frame is metal or polymer, but whether the 1) shooter is a good marksman and 2) how well and how consistently the slide components lock up for each shot. And whether it's hammer or striker fired should be irrelevant if the trigger is good and predictable.
(It may matter whether there is a metal structure within a polymer frame, but that a matter of debate.) Many polymer guns don't do well in Ransom Rest tests -- because those tests aren't AIMED and the frames may not return the sights to exactly the same position with each shot. With aimed fire you can adjust despite that slight variation.
If the shooter is a good shot, and the gun's lockup is good, there's little reason -- at least theoretically -- that the gun can't shoot as well as a metal-framed gun. (With those polymer framed guns that have a metal subsystem within the polymer frame, the lockup should be essentially the same as a metal-framed gun -- and some polymer is quite stout and stiff.)
(My problem when shooting at that distance isn't the gun but my eyes...I just don't see things as clearly or as well at that distance as I once did.)
(It may matter whether there is a metal structure within a polymer frame, but that a matter of debate.) Many polymer guns don't do well in Ransom Rest tests -- because those tests aren't AIMED and the frames may not return the sights to exactly the same position with each shot. With aimed fire you can adjust despite that slight variation.
If the shooter is a good shot, and the gun's lockup is good, there's little reason -- at least theoretically -- that the gun can't shoot as well as a metal-framed gun. (With those polymer framed guns that have a metal subsystem within the polymer frame, the lockup should be essentially the same as a metal-framed gun -- and some polymer is quite stout and stiff.)
(My problem when shooting at that distance isn't the gun but my eyes...I just don't see things as clearly or as well at that distance as I once did.)
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easyg
Member
Striker fired vs hammer fired should make no difference whatsoever concerning accuracy.
Polymer framed vs all metal....I doubt it makes a difference.
I think it's all about the shooter and the trigger.
Polymer framed vs all metal....I doubt it makes a difference.
I think it's all about the shooter and the trigger.
Catshooter
Member
I agree with you OP. I won't keep a defensive pistol that won't do 2" at 25. And I prefer better.
I've a Beretta 21 in .25 ACP that will go just above 2". I let it stay.
I bought my first Glock in late '88 (a 19). I've had a bunch of 'em over the years. In my experience most will make the mark. I have one old 19 that with Federal BPLE will do right at one inch. I think it would do better in the hands of a better shooter, but that all I can do anymore.
Cat
I've a Beretta 21 in .25 ACP that will go just above 2". I let it stay.
I bought my first Glock in late '88 (a 19). I've had a bunch of 'em over the years. In my experience most will make the mark. I have one old 19 that with Federal BPLE will do right at one inch. I think it would do better in the hands of a better shooter, but that all I can do anymore.
Cat
LiveLife
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Walt Sherrill
Member
Ain't THAT the truth. I just wish there were more good days...Linux Mint said:Most pistols have repeatable mechanical accuracy greater than what most humans are capable of.
That's why we have good range days and bad range days.
I do better if I avoid all caffeine before a Range session. (Picked that up from reading the US Army Marksmanship Unit's Training Manual.)
TN Outlaw
Member
Wow, I must have lots and LOTS of bad days! J/k
Nice shooting fellas. Truth is everyday at the range is a good day.
Nice shooting fellas. Truth is everyday at the range is a good day.
OP
OP
Trey Veston
Member
Went down to the cabin and tried a few more loads in the M&P40c. Couldn't get better than 3". Shot my good ol' G29 with some cheap lead HMR rounds and it wouldn't do better than 2".
Didn't even take pics for posterity I was so disgusted.
I think my eyes are getting old. I got new bifocals and the near vision section is much smaller than my old pair. My sights are now blurry and the target is clear. The old ones had a larger view so the sights were clear and the target was blurry. A few years ago I didn't need bifocals and everything was clear. Getting old is not for the weak...
Didn't even take pics for posterity I was so disgusted.
I think my eyes are getting old. I got new bifocals and the near vision section is much smaller than my old pair. My sights are now blurry and the target is clear. The old ones had a larger view so the sights were clear and the target was blurry. A few years ago I didn't need bifocals and everything was clear. Getting old is not for the weak...
LiveLife
Member
You don't have to take the "aging" process sitting down. Just augment your "older" reality.
I wore glasses all my life and in recent years transitioned from bifocals (lasted only 20 minutes) to progressive (on my 4th pair).
You need progressive glasses as bifocals' focal lengths are for close up reading and distance only and you need to focus in-between. And do not buy the cheapest progressive lenses! They have at least 3 tiers and buy at least the second tier lenses. I have tried top tier and second tier lenses and while top tier lenses provided larger field of view, second tier lenses will work for shooting if you cannot afford the higher cost.
And measure distance to your pistol sights and tell your eye doctor that you shoot and need to see your pistol sights.
Presto, now you will be able to see your sights and targets clear again.
Enjoy!
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OP
OP
Trey Veston
Member
I actually do have progressives. I just used the general term of bifocals since I didn't think most people knew the difference. I used Costco this time instead of the optometrist in my home town and communication of my needs wasn't very clear on my part. But they were so cheap that I will go back in a few months and get the top tier lenses. I had no idea that's what I had last time.
I tried a reflex sight for GSSF and the dang dot was blurry thanks to astigmatism. Might have to just get a shotgun in a few years if this trend continues, lol.
I tried a reflex sight for GSSF and the dang dot was blurry thanks to astigmatism. Might have to just get a shotgun in a few years if this trend continues, lol.
CoalTrain49
Member
I think a lot of them can.
The problem is they will never be in the hand of someone who can actually shoot well enough to prove it.
As an example I had a Marine rangemaster take my P-220, bang on the sights a few times and shoot 1" groups with it.
I eventually sold it because I couldn't shoot it. Then I bought another one and I couldn't shoot it either. I sold that one too. Combat sights just don't agree with me. I need adjustable target sights.
The problem is they will never be in the hand of someone who can actually shoot well enough to prove it.
As an example I had a Marine rangemaster take my P-220, bang on the sights a few times and shoot 1" groups with it.
I eventually sold it because I couldn't shoot it. Then I bought another one and I couldn't shoot it either. I sold that one too. Combat sights just don't agree with me. I need adjustable target sights.
Walt Sherrill
Member
bds said:
You aren't as limited in using standard bi-focal lenses as you might think, and some folks -- I'm one of them -- find progressive lenses troublesome. (I tried a pair with progressive lenses for a couple of weeks and just couldn't make them work. My eye doctor says that's not unusual. My wife loves hers.)
I've been getting TWO PAIRS of glasses for number of years (and since it's at COSTCO, the costs are reasonable.) I use one pair for everyday use and one pair for shooting.
About 10-15 years ago, an opthamalogist who shot at our local indoor range and who worked with shooters and athletes a lot, recommended that the glasses I use for shooting be set up like this:..
- The weak eye lens should have a single focal length set for distance vision. (There's no reason it couldn't be a normal bifocal lens if you want, set for reading/distance or set like the strong-eye lens, as described below.)
- The strong eye lens should be bifocal, but with the lower part set to focus about 5-6 inches beyond my extended arm (using a shooting stance). I've done this for 10+ years now, and have slowly had the folks making the lenses move the bifocal line higher and higher. This coming year -- I'm due for new glasses next month -- I'll try to see if they can make the lens with just a narrow band (maybe a 1/2") across the top of the bifocal lens. (That should let me see the target clearly by nodding my head just a bit.)
You can do any or all of this with progressive lenses, too, if they work for you.
fxvr5
Member
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There seems to be some confusion over what the question is in this thread.
The question is whether a polymer striker fired gun can shoot under 1” groups at 25 yards.
People are confusing the skill of the shooter with the mechanical accuracy of the gun. They are two completely different things.
A terrible shooter can’t shoot that well even with a gun that keeps all its rounds under an inch at 25 yards. Although, there is that thing called luck that means every once in a while they will point the gun at the same spot and produce the desired small group.
But a question concerning the mechanical accuracy of the gun is different. In this case the skill of the shooter is irrelevant and should not be part of the equation. For assessing the mechanical accuracy of the gun, it should be mounted in a mechanical rest, such as a Ransom Rest, and tested whether it can shoot under 1” groups at 25 yards.
Randomness also has a role when shooting a gun from a Ransom Rest. Even a gun or ammo that would not shoot all the rounds under 1’, will have some some groups that will end up measuring under 1” just from a random selection of shots. Good groups happen even with not so accurate guns and ammo.
Look at accuracy tests in gun magazines. Do all the 5-shot groups with the same ammo produce the exact same size group? No. Even when fired from a Ransom Rest? No. Yet some people seem to think they should.
The question is whether a polymer striker fired gun can shoot under 1” groups at 25 yards.
People are confusing the skill of the shooter with the mechanical accuracy of the gun. They are two completely different things.
A terrible shooter can’t shoot that well even with a gun that keeps all its rounds under an inch at 25 yards. Although, there is that thing called luck that means every once in a while they will point the gun at the same spot and produce the desired small group.
But a question concerning the mechanical accuracy of the gun is different. In this case the skill of the shooter is irrelevant and should not be part of the equation. For assessing the mechanical accuracy of the gun, it should be mounted in a mechanical rest, such as a Ransom Rest, and tested whether it can shoot under 1” groups at 25 yards.
Randomness also has a role when shooting a gun from a Ransom Rest. Even a gun or ammo that would not shoot all the rounds under 1’, will have some some groups that will end up measuring under 1” just from a random selection of shots. Good groups happen even with not so accurate guns and ammo.
Look at accuracy tests in gun magazines. Do all the 5-shot groups with the same ammo produce the exact same size group? No. Even when fired from a Ransom Rest? No. Yet some people seem to think they should.
CoalTrain49
Member
Can I borrow yours?
I seem to have misplaced mine.
Walt Sherrill
Member
The objective of a Ransom Rest test is to remove the human element. But a Ransom Rest doesn't always work as well with some polymer-framed guns as it does with steel-framed guns.
That's because the polymer used in some frame (or the frame design itself) is stiffer than other polymer-framed guns -- and some of the less-stiff frames don't always return to the same starting point for following shots. For those frames you need to re-aim the gun after each shot, but only a few do that. With a metal frame, re-aiming isn't necessary.
But if everything else is well fit and the components consistently lock up, aimed fire in a polymer-framed gun can match an equally well-fit steel-framed in terms of accuracy/precision. The two guns might perform quite differently in a Ransom Rest.
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