Why is a FOID necessary to handle guns in gunshops?

[Don Gwinn]

Look, some of you are just not getting it. This is not a dealer policy. I don't know of any dealer or any gun show promoter in Illinois who doesn't enforce this law. That's because it IS THE LAW.

If someone knows a judge who can explain how what's clearly stated in the statutes excerpted above actually isn't so, then bully for him, but he's not the only judge in this state and others don't share his views. Unless I know I'm going to go before him, I'd be gambling at best to violate this law.

Frankly, if you don't live in Illinois, have not lived in Illinois and have not read Illinois law carefully, you're welcome to comment, but your comments will be taken at face value. With all due respect, there's not much behind them.

Is the FOID card really working in IL?

No. Illinois is bordered by Missouri, Iowa, Wisconsin, Indiana and Kentucky. None of those states require a FOID. Missouri recently got rid of their "pistol purchase permit" system. Three of those states are shall-issue CCW states, and I believe all allow NFA ownership (Illinois does not.)
Illinois has higher murder and violent crime rates than any of them, including gun crime rates as far as I can tell.

[quote}In terms of preventing "bad guns" in the streets?[/quote]
Nope. But nobody but a few dreamers thought it would. The rest just wanted to rein in the gun nuts and at least "do something."

In a way, it makes sense so bad guys can't buy ammo and to keep guns in their rightful place.

No, it doesn't. You see, the criminals disobey this law like all the others, which you or I could have predicted with ten seconds of hard thinking. But again, I don't believe the results were considered nearly as much as the appearance of "doing something."
Bad guys get ammo the way they always did before; they steal it, they buy it from someone less scrupulous, they fake FOID cards and use FOIDs that should have been revoked but weren't.
(And before anyone jumps in to tell me that doesn't happen, I invite you to tell it to my dad, who has had the experience of being threatened with prison time by a Macoupin County sheriff's deputy for selling a handgun to a felon. The reason he didn't get arrested was that he had done everything right; the skell had gotten a FOID by changing his middle initial and he even passed NICS.)

I'm curious about this. What's the history behind FOID?

It passed in 1968, when people were scared to death that the hippies and the blacks and the liberals were going to try to burn Chicago to the ground and everyone would be caught in the crossfire between the Black Panthers and the Good 'Ol Boys. Since the FOID didn't seem to interfere with duck hunting (deer hunting wasn't big back then) it was passed over weak objections. There may have been intimations that people of the wrong color would have difficulty obtaining the FOID; I'm not sure. I haven't read the transcripts of the FOID's floor debate and passage, so what I actually know comes from the transcript of the 1970 constitutional convention debate over what passes for an RKBA amendment in Illinois. Wouldn't surprise me, in any case, if they sold it to blacks in Chicago as a way to keep the KKK from stockpiling weapons--and to the whites in Chicago and downstate as a way to keep the Black Panther Party from taking over.

 

[Don Gwinn]

If my history seems fuzzy, you'll have to forgive me. The FOID was created ten years before I was born.

This is also why I sometimes get a little short when people who live a thousand miles away say things like "That's a lousy stinking LIEberal Democrat law!!!!!1 If you were REAL AMERICANS you wouldn't have let them pass it!!1!!!

 

[isp2605]

Wouldn't surprise me, in any case, if they sold it to blacks in Chicago as a way to keep the KKK from stockpiling weapons--and to the

You really need to think a bit wider range of the national events occuring at the time if you want to understand the reason FOID was passed. You have to dig a bit more in your history lessons. It had nothing at all to do with the blacks in Chicago or the KKK no matter how surprised you might be.
1968 was the passage of the federal gun act of 1968 following the shootings of MLK and RFK. 1968 was 5 yrs past when JFK was killed. Those acts are what precipitated the FOID passage of 1968. Prior to 1968 guns could be purchased thru the mail just as you would order something from Sears or Penneys. Call up whover had a gun, send them the money, and they'd mail you the gun. Who were you buying from? You never really knew. Who were you as a seller selling to? You didn't know that either. The intent of the FOID act was to do basically what the 4473 form does now when buying from a dealer.
This wasn't 10 yrs before I was born. In 1968 I was more than old enough to remember the events as well as buying guns well prior to 1968.

 

[Autolycus]

VforVendetta: I have been pestering them about it. I want to go shooting.

 

[Don Gwinn]

I was aware of GCA 1968, but did Illinois politics really not play a role? The Constitutional convention transcripts didn't give me that impression. You were there and I wasn't, obviously, but racist politics have a long history in Chicago and Illinois, so it made sense to me.

 

[TheGrouch]

A FOID card in Illinois wouldn't be such a bad thing if it doubled as a carry permit. Wishful thinking.......I know.

 

[isp2605]

I was aware of GCA 1968, but did Illinois politics really not play a role?

Since JFK was killed there was discussions and legislation proposed at state and national level. It wasn't until 1968 that bills were finally passed.

You were there and I wasn't, obviously, but racist politics have a long history in Chicago and Illinois, so it made sense to me.

Just your speculation and not based on anything that actually occured during the time.
When JFK was killed there were bills and discussions proposed. When RFK and MLK were killed within months of each other is what finally got the bills being moved thru the state and federal systems.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Yes, I was speculating. I think I acknowledged that more than once, but you are certainly welcome to point it out.

Again.

 

[Markbo]

What's a FOID?

 

[isp2605]

Yes, I was speculating. I think I acknowledged that more than once, but you are certainly welcome to point it out.

Again.

It's just that it would be a refreshing change for people to stick with facts on these forums instead of spouting opinions as if they were facts. There's enough erroneous "opinions" being preached as facts without the moderators adding to the pile too. That just causes others to repeat it as being fact when they don't have a clue about fact or opinion either. Then these same folks try to influence legislators using erroneous "opinions"? Yeah, that sure helps the cause. :banghead:

What's a FOID?

Firearms Owner ID.
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1657&ChapAct=430%26nbsp%3BILCS%26nbsp%3B65%2F&ChapterID=39&ChapterName=PUBLIC+SAFETY&ActName=Firearm+Owners+Identification+Card+Act%2E

 

[illinisnare]

ISP2605- based on your experience, what is your opinion of the various interpretations of 'possession' as it relates to the FOID act and OP's question.

 

[isp2605]

It doesn't matter what my opinion or anyone else's opinion is. The only opinions that matter are the opinion of the IL AG's office and court rulings. They are the ones who have said that holding a gun in your hands amounts to "possession" and therefore a FOID card is required. There is some reason for their argument. Just how long is "holding" and where before one is considered possessing? The AG says that if it's in your hands then it's possessing.

 

[Geo.Az]

I Feel You Guy's will never get It.

To Many Lawyers to many Bad Laws :banghead:

ps.... If you guy's would spend this much time arguing
and reverse the Bad Laws....What Part of BAD do you not understand ?

Sorry Guy's so little time left.

 

[Anonymous Coward]

A FOID card in Illinois wouldn't be such a bad thing if it doubled as a carry permit. Wishful thinking.......I know.

I don't mind it, all other things being equal, but it is the legal mechanism that could be used to seize all guns, or ones of the "wrong" type. They know where we live, even if they don't know (officially) what we own. It may even be considered (by a bad court) to be reasonable grounds for search.

And since it expires and has to be renewed, that's another choke point that could lead to de facto confiscation. I know our Governor would love that.

The FOID card is a permit. And permissions, unlike rights, are subject to revocation. Even if I did trust my state government (ha), who knows if I would trust the next administration? Or the one after that?

Things like background checks for private sales and permit cards are intended to keep guns out of the hands of criminals by insuring that only the law-abiding are allowed to buy and own guns and ammunition. That's what most people mean when they talk about "reasonable gun control." I agree with their intent, but I know that once you give the government the power to say no, eventually someone in government will use that power.

You don't need government permission to exercise a right.

 

[MakAttak]

Every day I read this crap makes me more and more pleased that I moved away from IL.

It's sad that a government can ruin your home state. I just hope it doesn't get worse for my family left behind there. (Wow, I feel like I'm talking about leaving the USSR)

 

[Don Gwinn]

If you guy's would spend this much time arguing
and reverse the Bad Laws....What Part of BAD do you not understand ?

Sounds good to me. Please submit your plan here on THR. Pay special attention to how you propose to change or nullify two-thirds of the voters in the state, currently under the control of one of the more powerful political machines in the country. That's the part that's been giving us the most trouble.

 

[scout26]

If you guy's would spend this much time arguing
and reverse the Bad Laws....What Part of BAD do you not understand ?

Sounds good to me. Please submit your plan here on THR. Pay special attention to how you propose to change or nullify two-thirds of the voters in the state, currently under the control of one of the more powerful political machines in the country. That's the part that's been giving us the most trouble.

And there's that pesky part of state constitution that says "subject to police power".

Oh, and please show your work.

I'm all ears and ready to go !!!

 

[crebralfix]

A FOID is required because the population cannot be trusted to handle firearms without government permission.

 

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe. There's a large number of people who I wish wouldn't be able to handle firearms. But I know that lack of a FOID card isn't going to stop them.

 

[Flyboy]

crebralfix is the closest answer to the truth.

The real reason is that Chicago^W Springfield wants to kill the idea of private gun ownership. The more difficult it is to buy your first gun, the less likely it is that you'll make that purchase.

Writing the law so that you have to get a permit in order to decide if you even want one is part of that process.

So, the reason you need government permission to even handle a gun in a ship is because your government is trying to make it as onerous as possible to own a gun.

Any questions?

 

[Markbo]

So let me understand here... .only criminals and politicians will be able to have guns??

Or is that a redundant statement for the great state of Illinois?

 

[Javelin]

Communism.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Geo.Az, are you still out there?

How about ISP2605? If you'd write up what you remember of events like the run-up to passage of the FOID card, it could serve as a reference for the rest of us.

 

[beachjumper]

What the FOID!!!!
Another good reason to not move to Illioins.

 

[isp2605]

If you want the history on FOID go back to the legislative records starting in about 1964-65 for the first movement on FOID. There were modifications made to the bills until it passed in 1968