Can someone please educate me about Waco and Ruby Ridge?

[griz]

Telewinz, I was trying to keep away from this but when you come out with this:

One new piece of evidence in the government's favor was a lie detector test that Danforth's team administered to David Corderman, the agent who fired the three pyrotechnic tear gas rounds. The test indicated that Corderman was answering truthfully when he said he had not fired the fire-causing tear gas at the building.

you have gone off the deep end. How does lying on a polygraph go in the government's favor?

 

[telewinz]

hammer4nc

When did I say I was using just court evidence (their is so much evidence supporting the government's case that I could very easily use just court evidence and I have supplied more than enough to discredit any personal opinion offered by many on this thread) and I guess you aren't misleading when you say the Danforth report is "political" when in fact it was an independent study. MY standards certainly haven't changed, I'll take court and independent evidence over, rumor, hate, bias, and urban legend anyday. The evidence is suppose to point to a reasonable conclusion, not the otherway around as you would have it.

No one has yet to cite credible evidence that disprove Danforth's conclusions. How come? Could it be your missing "evidence" never existed?

The St. Louis lawyer and Episcopal priest, who left the U.S. Senate after a long career as a Republican officeholder, brings to this endeavor a sterling personal reputation, a record of professional integrity and the political skills to manage this probe. Signs are good that the inquiry will be focused, balanced and to the direct questions of whether government agents are culpable for crimes and whether they left a trail of deceit that undermines the credibility of the law. By selecting former Sen. John Danforth as the investigator of government conduct in the Branch Davidian inferno, Attorney General Janet Reno has tried as well as we can think possible to get the Waco thing onto a high road.

Special Counsel John C. Danforth today delivered to Deputy Attorney General Eric Holder his Final Report Concerning the 1993 Confrontation at the Mt. Carmel Complex, Waco, Texas.

This Report unequivocally reaffirms the conclusions contained in the Special Counsel's Interim Report of July 21, 2000.

Specifically:


Government agents did not start the fire at Waco;
Government agents did not shoot at the Branch Davidians on April 19, 1993;
Government agents did not improperly use the United States military;
Government agents did not engage in a massive conspiracy and cover-up. There is no evidence of any wrongdoing on the part of Attorney General Reno, the present and former Director of the FBI, other high officials of the United States, or the individual members of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team who fired three pyrotechnic tear gas rounds on April 19, 1993.
Responsibility for the tragedy at Waco rests with certain of the Branch Davidians and their leader, David Koresh, who shot and killed four ATF agents, wounded twenty others, shot at FBI agents trying to insert tear gas into the complex, burned down the complex, and shot at least twenty of their own people, including five children.
These conclusions are based on a review of some 2.3 million pages of documents, interviews of over 1000 witnesses, and examination of thousands of pounds of physical evidence. They are supported by the findings of numerous experts retained by the Office of Special Counsel to assist in its investigation. The expert reports are attached as appendices to the Special Counsel's Final Report.

In his 152-page interim report, Mr. Danforth said he had concluded with "100 percent certainty" that federal agents neither fired their weapons nor played a role in touching off the inferno. He also cleared the government of engaging in a massive cover-up or improperly using military personnel at Waco.

"The responsibility for the tragedy at Waco rests with certain of the Branch Davidians and their leader, David Koresh," Mr. Danforth told reporters. Those Davidians "shot and killed four [Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms] agents, wounded 20 others, shot at FBI agents trying to insert tear gas into the complex, burned down the complex, and shot at least 20 of their own people, including five children," he added.

PLEASE DISCREDIT THESE CONCLUSIONS AND WE CAN CLOSE THIS THREAD!

 

[hammer4nc]

tele,

Could you please give a link for the above excerpt, extolling the virtues of Mr. Danforth?

Its not a Janet Reno or Bill Clinton press release, is it? Independent?

 

[telewinz]

Sorry, If I knew how to provide a link I wouldn't have to quote the reports as I have done. I don't even know how to use the vB code. Sorry, I'm not a computer whiz. But don't rely on my sources, find your own. A topic like this (and abortion) must have plenty of credible evidence and I really would like to see it. The sworn testamony does come from the court cases and the independent study (verse for verse) does come from the Danforth report. I am only stubborn about the credible evidence I'll except , not my conclusion(s).

San Jose Mercury News, September 12, 1999

 

[hammer4nc]

Thanks, tele:

I ran a quick search.

The only link that came up with your citations was an editorial from the San Jose Mercury New, Sept. 12, 1999. Link here: http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco55.html

So, you mix up a freakin' newspaper editorial with excerpts from government reports to strengthen your argument, and lead us to beleive its the unequivocal truth? hahahahhahahaha!!!!

Furthermore, the link was part of famed cultbuster's website, http://www.rickross.com. Independent? hahahahahaha!!!!!

Not that Mr. Ross couldn't post some useful information, but its a far country mile from "independent". You're a real piece of....work, telewinz.

 

[telewinz]

Here's more credible evidence, can you refute it?

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Attorney General Janet Reno is close to naming former Sen. John C. Danforth (R-Missouri) to lead an outside investigation into unresolved issues surrounding the 1993 FBI siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, sources said Tuesday.

One Justice Department source said that while no formal offer has been made, a deal with Danforth is 90 percent done.

But Justice Department officials said outstanding issues regarding the scope and mandate of the investigation must be worked out before Danforth accepts the job.

One critical question: the power and authority of the investigator to pursue any crimes uncovered.

Reno has pledged to get to the bottom of what happened on April 19, 1993, at the Branch Davidian compound near Waco following the FBI's recent admission that potentially flammable tear gas was fired at a bunker near the compound -- an action which authorities had denied for six years. Eighty people, including leader David Koresh, died at the compound.


Sponsored Clarence Thomas for Supreme Court

Danforth, 63, served two terms as Missouri's attorney general and three terms in the U.S. Senate.

He's a Republican well-liked by Democrats.

During his 18 years in the Senate, Danforth cultivated his moderate image by frequently crossing party lines on issues ranging from civil rights to health care to prayer in school.

As the loyal sponsor of Clarence Thomas's nomination to the Supreme court, Danforth played a central role in one of the most bitterly partisan battles of the decade.

The senator stood by Thomas as Anita Hill charged him with sexual harassment. Thomas won confirmation in part because of Danforth's reputation for independence.

"For a hundred days, I've been a spokesman for this person, Clarence Thomas, and on this hundredth day, I act as his spokesman again with great pain, and great anger at the injustice which is being perpetrated on him," said Danforth in 1991.

Danforth, as the Missouri attorney general, had hired Thomas out of law school two decades earlier.


'Conscience of the Senate'


In 1993, President Bill Clinton tapped Danforth and Sen. Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) to co-chair a bipartisan commission on entitlements.

In keeping with Danforth's independent streak, the commission endorsed controversial changes in Medicare and Social Security. The politically radioactive proposals were never acted upon.

A graduate of Yale University Divinity School and an ordained Episcopal priest, Danforth's supporters called him the "conscience of the Senate."

When he decided not to run for re-election, Danforth said he wanted to pursue life beyond politics:

"I don't want to be a person who is a politician and nothing else," Danforth said in 1994. "I don't want to be a senator and nothing else. So I want a life beyond politics."

Now, after nearly five years enjoying the nonpolitical life as a private attorney in Missouri, Danforth is again taking a leading role in a high-profile Washington controversy.

"Nor has any strong evidence surfaced publicly that would lead Mr.
Danforth to the opposite conclusion."

"Extremists on both sides seem to have already made up their minds. There is probably no test or court ruling that could change them. The rest of us should reserve judgment as we try to separate fact from spin. "

"For conspiracy theorists, this will not be enough. Nothing would be enough."

 

[Byron Quick]

____________________________________________________________
One new piece of evidence in the government's favor was a lie detector test that Danforth's team administered to David Corderman, the agent who fired the three pyrotechnic tear gas rounds. The test indicated that Corderman was answering truthfully when he said he had not fired the fire-causing tear gas at the building.
____________________________________________________________

telewinz,
Now consider the studies done testing the reliability of lie detectors. Give you a hint: Consider the numerous lie detector tests given to Richard Ames over the years...why didn't the CIA catch him from the tests?

Oh, if Corderman was not firing the pyrotechnic rounds at the building then where was he firing them? At groundhogs? For the sheer hell of it? At federal agents since he couldn't fire them at the Branch Davidians. Exactly what other targets were available?

Oh, and based on your posted material the FBI lied for six years about the presence of pyrotechnic rounds at Waco.

But you maintain they are now telling the truth, correct? Why do you believe that liars suddenly became paragons of truth and virtue? Because they swore an oath?

 

[telewinz]

Byron

As you may or may not know, lie detectors tests can be reliable depending many factors. As far as I know they cannot be admitted into a court of law. If he would have failed the lie detector test, I'm sure you would not have use that to support your argument, would you I don't know where or if he was firing them, do you are does anyone?

On Ames, IIRC he had not be given a lie detector test in years (how could he fail a test he wasn't given?) which was against policy. Fairure of the system.

 

[hammer4nc]

Evidence of what, exactly? What conclusion are you advancing, that CNN exists, and is not a figment of your imagination?

If it has anything to do with the content of this article, you can bet that any conclusion that begins with:

Reno has pledged to get to the bottom of what happened ...

...is going to be accepted without question as simply beyond reproach. No further discussion is necessary.

As Dr. Evil would say: "Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!"

This is getting quite comical.

 

[Byron Quick]

telewinz,

Unless there have been major improvements in the past twelve years of which I am unaware, I would not trust a lie detector if the man being tested said: The sun will rise in the early morning in the east.

I'd be outside with a watch and a compass. That's how reliable lie detector tests are.

With some people, a lie detector will give a reliable result. With others, it will indicate lieing when they are truthful...or the reverse.

With still others, the person can maintain that the sky is green, the president is a space alien, etc. and the machine will indicate truthful answers.

I know a woman who has been to prison several times for theft, credit card fraud, etc. She's passed every lie detector test she's ever been given. They showed her a video once of her using a stolen credit card. Then they gave her a lie detector test about the event. She passed with flying colors.
Denied it was her on the video. Told them it was just someone who looked like her.

Sure they can be reliable depending on many factors. Problem is, there's no way to determine which factors with which people.

Fact: The FBI maintained for years that no pyrotechnic tear gas rounds were used at Waco.
Fact: It was proven that the FBI lied about this.
Fact: An agent passed a lie detector test about this use.
Fact: Lie detector tests are not admissible evidence in court. (So much for sworn testimony.
Query: The FBI lied about this...but the FBI told the truth about everything else right?

Have you thought about buying that bridge?

Oh, one more thing? You don't find it to be straining credulity that a highly trained sniper inflicted a relatively minor wound on his intended target but then struck an "unintender" target directly in the head? That doesn't seem to be backwards to you?

 

[Keith]

Telewinz,

Forget all that legal nitty gritty. In both these cases, the accused were charged with violating an obscure provision of the tax code.

Guilty or not, it is simply unthinkable that a reasonable government would arm a bunch of tax agents and send them after a citizen for such a crime.

Withold the amount from their income taxes (along with any assessed fines and late penalties) and forget about it! If the accused have a problem with that, let them appeal the matter through the IRS.

Keith

 

[telewinz]

Byron

Their has been a great of improvement with lie detectors. My department uses a laptop version often. It measures voice stress and is claimed by the experts to be very reliable.

No progress is being made on this thread, its time to put it to rest. My views have not been changed and neither have yours. I can live with that. Peace.

 

[TallPine]

By selecting former Sen. John Danforth as the investigator of government conduct in the Branch Davidian inferno, Attorney General Janet Reno has tried as well as we can think possible to get the Waco thing onto a high road.

Well, there you go ... Reno selects her own investigator ... how independent and unbiased is that ????




Did they ever think to investigate just why the hell the Feds started this whole mess anyway?

 

[telewinz]

Tallpine

:banghead:

 

[TallPine]

So, tell me just why did they start this whole mess over a $200 tax stamp and alleged child abuse which is not a federal issue to begin with ????

 

[Majic]

If a government was to hire an independent source for investigations, why hire former government employees? Doesn't that sound counter productive? The "good ol boy" process still works. To make it even try to sound plausible the Democratic party chooses a Rebublican to help them, but this Rebulican is on record for siding with the Democrats on many isues. That in itself should arouse suspicions even before any report is generated.

 

[Tamara]

"And the Clinton administration launched an attack on people in Texas because those people were religious nuts with guns. Hell, this country was founded by religious nuts with guns. Who does Bill Clinton think stepped ashore on Plymouth Rock? Peace Corps volunteers? Or maybe the people in Texas were attacked because of child abuse. But, if child abuse was the issue, why didn't Janet Reno tear-gas Woody Allen?" -P.J. O'Rourke

 

[C.R.Sam]

Keyboad splatter.

Sam

 

[Al Norris]

telewinz wrote:
(their is so much evidence supporting the government's case that I could very easily use just court evidence and I have supplied more than enough to discredit any personal opinion offered by many on this thread)

And your certain of this in the Weaver Case? Ah, but more for you later, I suspect.

Pat S., I don't know how much you followed this particular end of the Ruby Ridge debacle, but a couple of things I've kept on my computer sheds a little light. I'm just gonna do a highlight of the WND article. The URl is there, should you (or anyone else) wish to read the whole thing.

First, about former County Prosecuter Brett Benton:

WorldNet Daily Wednesday June 13, 2001

Idaho prosecutor
under investigation
Same official who has power to charge Ruby Ridge sharpshooter

By Jon Dougherty
© 2001 WorldNetDaily.com

....

Brett Benton, prosecutor for Boundary County, Idaho, is under investigation by county commissioners for allegedly committing two counts of felony activity, including forgery and falsifying documents, according to a report in a local newspaper.

The charges were confirmed to WorldNetDaily by Mike Weland, the county's resource planner and public relations director.

....

Denise Woodbury, former prosecutor for Boundary County who was ousted from office by Benton, had tried unsuccessfully a number of times to bring state charges against Horiuchi for manslaughter. However, federal courts have routinely backed Horiuchi's actions, even though he was operating under admittedly dubious federal rules of engagement, which said FBI agents could fire at any armed adult during the standoff.

....

But because of Benton's alleged criminal behavior, some analysts have wondered if he is fit to try the case or if he may be open to threats of intimidation to drop the case.

Benton is "definitely vulnerable to being compromised," said David Codrea, a gun-rights legal analyst. "The people from the beltway have the resources, the know-how and the historical predisposition to do just that."

....

Writing for the court's majority, Judge Alex Kozinski said: "When federal officers violate the Constitution, either through malice or excessive zeal, they can be held accountable for violating the state's criminal laws."

The court agreed with Idaho's contention that immunity cannot be granted until there is a hearing to determine whether Horiuchi acted unlawfully. If a judge rules that the FBI sniper broke state law, he could be hauled before a jury.

Ramsey Clark, a former U.S. attorney general under President Johnson who argued the case for Boundary County, Idaho, called the ruling "courageous" and said it showed that law enforcement would be held accountable for violence.

A note or two: Ramsey Clark, along with an L.A. attorney, had been acting "Pro Bono" for several years in this case. They were incensed by Bentons criminal charges and by his (later) refusal to try the case. Everyone in Idaho that followed this, believed that Benton bowed under Federal pressure, as Codrea implied would happen. Benton was subsequently convicted of misdemeanor falsifying of documents, specifically: a single misdemeanor charge of impersonating a notary public (A misdemeanor is punishable in Idaho by a fine of up to $500 and up to six months in jail).

From the Wednesday December 27, 2000 WND Report:

In an earlier 9th Circuit panel's decision in June to throw out the case based on the Supremacy Clause, Judge Alex Kozinski of the 9th Circuit wrote the dissenting opinion.

"Since when does taking up a defensive position justify the use of deadly force?" asked Kozinski. "To believe that could justify the shots federal agents fired off was wrong. This has never been the law in this circuit, or anywhere else I'm aware of -- except in James Bond movies," Kozinski added. "Because the 007 standard for the use of deadly force now applies to all law enforcement agencies in our circuit -- federal, state, and local -- it should make us all feel less secure."

Again, Kozinsky. You folks remember him? He was the one that gave the scathing dissent in the En Banc Silveira Case.

And just for you, telewinz, this article: Agent tied to Ruby Ridge has rights restored (Please note that the Spokesman-Review requires registration)

Tallahassee, Fla. _ Florida Gov. Jeb Bush and the Clemency Board on Thursday restored the civil rights of the FBI agent convicted of destroying records during the investigation of the deadly 1992 shootout at Ruby Ridg in Idaho.

E. Michael Kahoe, a former head of the FBI's violent crime and major offenders section, pleaded guilty in 1997 to obstruction of justice for ordering the destruction of an FBI report into the 1992 fatal shooting at the cabin of white separatist Randall Weaver.

Convicted felons cannot vote in Florida unless their rights are restored by the Clemency Board, which is made up of the governor and Cabinet. The board did not restore Kahoe's right to own, possess or use a gun.

Kahoe recounted the details of the shootout, his role in investigating the FBI's actions and his decision to destroy a report to be sent to the U.S. attorney in Idaho. The report could have been used by lawyers representing Weaver, whose wife and son were killed during an 11-day standoff with government agents at Weaver's rural cabin.

Weaver and associate Kevin Harris were both acquitted of all charges related to the siege.

Kahoe served one year, 20 days in federal prison and completed two years probation

Telewinz, would you care to tell us, yet again, exactly what felonies Weaver was convicted of? Yet again, another unbiased link. This time from Court TV:

Idaho vs Randy Weaver

(Page 19)
On April 13, 1993, a jury consisting of seven women and five men, along with six alternates was selected at the Federal Courthouse in Boise, Idaho, with U.S. District Court Judge Edward J. Lodge presiding. The trial began the following day and ultimately lasted for a total of 36 days. During the trial, the prosecution called 56 witnesses, while the defense, confident that the government would destroy their own case, called none. The entire ordeal was bizarre to say the least and almost everyone of the prosecution’s witnesses contradicted or countered the testimony of a previous witness. The prosecution spent several days going over the Weavers' religious views, trying to establish that they were racist and had a long-lived conspiracy to violently confront the government. Marshall service witnesses described pre-siege scenarios to root Weaver out of his cabin, however when pressed by the defense, they said they never considered simply knocking on the door and arresting him. In addition, government agents admitted that the FBI had tampered with evidence and that the crime scene photos given to the defense were phony reenactments. Even though the prosecutor knew this, he had failed to inform the defense and it was only during the trial that these facts came to light. For prosecutorial misconduct, the judge ordered the government to pay part of the defense attorneys' fees - an action almost unheard of in a criminal case. Prosecutor Ron Howen was also was forced to apologize in open court.

....

(page 20)
Following the trial, the jury deliberated for nearly three weeks before finding Kevin Harris not guilty of murder or any of the other charges that had been brought against him. While Randy Weaver was also found not guilty of any federal felony counts, the jury did find him guilty of failing to appear in court and guilty of violating his bail conditions. Randy was then sentenced to 18 months in jail, 14 of which he had already served and fined him $10,000. After the jury announced its decision, Gerry Spence told {The New York Times}, "A jury today has said that you can't kill somebody just because you wear badges, then cover those homicides by prosecuting the innocent. What are we going to do now about the deaths of Vicki Weaver, a mother who was killed with a baby in her arms, and Sammy Weaver, a boy who was shot in the back?" Randy Weaver also spoke out from behind bars while serving his remaining four months, and denied being a white supremacist or having had any affiliation with white supremacist groups. "I'm not a white supremacist. I'm a white separatist," Weaver said. "I was born white. I can't help that. If I was black I'd probably be affiliated with Louis Farrakhan's group, but as it is, I don't belong to anything. I don't believe I'm superior to anyone, but I do believe I have the right to be with my own kind of people if I choose to."

....

Bibliography

Books:

Ambush at Ruby Ridge, by Alan W. Bock September 1996, Berkley Pub Group; ISBN: 0425157296

Every Knee Shall Bow, by Jess Walter July 1996, HarperCollins Collins; ISBN: 0061011312

Television:

“Ruby Ridge Investigationâ€, by Nightline 1995, ABC News; ASIN: B00005BK47

CNN

Newspapers:

Spokesman-Review - Spokane, Washington
The Associated Press

Internet Web Sites:

Court TV

About.com Law Library

Ruby Ridge

Amerika

Now back to the 11th Circuits reasonings. One of the damning pieces of information were reports that the other members of the HRT refused to abide by the "new" rules of engagement. You think That's just my opinion? Do your own research and read the 11th decision (like you told someone else). It's all in there.... But you won't. That would defeat whatever you think your purpose here.

Anyone besides me think it strange one person starts the thread with a question and another does all the refutation, meanwhile the originator is never to be seen (at least on this thread)?

 

[Tamara]

their[sic] is so much evidence supporting the government's case that I could very easily use just court evidence...

...and lose, much like the government did in court.

The .gov's case was so strong that Gerry Spence didn't have to call a single witness.

 

[telewinz]

Tamara

Excuse me, T-H-E-R-E

source; Webster's Dictionary

"Nor has any strong evidence surfaced publicly that would lead Mr.
Danforth to the opposite conclusion."

"Extremists on both sides seem to have already made up their minds. There is probably no test or court ruling that could change them. The rest of us should reserve judgment as we try to separate fact from spin. "

"For conspiracy theorists, this will not be enough. Nothing would be enough."

Al Norris; Very good post!
But I don't think this thread is a conspiracy.

"If I'm wrong, I don't deserve to live" Who said it during WACO?

 

[Al Norris]

telewinz wrote:
Al Norris; Very good post!
But I don't think this thread is a conspiracy.

Neither do I. I just found it passing strange.....

 

[Byron Quick]

E. Michael Kahoe, a former head of the FBI's violent crime and major offenders section, pleaded guilty in 1997 to obstruction of justice for ordering the destruction of an FBI report into the 1992 fatal shooting at the cabin of white separatist Randall Weaver.

He destroyed the report because it wasn't sworn testimony by expert witnesses. Therefore, he didn't accept it as true evidence

 

[swampsniper]

Well, now that it is destroyed, we will never know, will we? Hey, you don't like evidence, say it wasn't sworn. Don't like the witness, oh, well, he's not an expert.

 

[telewinz]

You have lost me on WACO...

I am watching WACO: Rules of Engagement(1997), its on Cable True Stories Channel. VERY ANTI-GOVERNMENT point of View!

"Snipers were placed where they WOULD (not could) shoot those fleeing"

"We FEEL tape shows gunshots" next sentence "GUNSHOTS can be seen fired form tank". How many of you think that a "feeling" has the same weight as "I know". "torturing babies"? it goes on and on, its sad!
Gobbels would laugh at such a poor propaganda!

It's an insult that such biased, non-factural "evidence" appears through out the movie.

Sorry, your evidence has little to no credibility, I've reached my conclusion. Thanks for your help/input.