Can someone please educate me about Waco and Ruby Ridge?

[Majic]

Nightfall,
I vaquely remember the comparison of the flashes also. If I remember correctly the flashes were on the backside of the compound away from the press. People were seen trying to leave the compound and the flashes appeared and the people turned and ran back in. It was surmised that the flashes were possibly gunfire to keep the people contained in the compound.

 

[telewinz]

AAAH, is their no help for the widow's son?

Swampsniper being cautious with regards to our government is wise and old BUT to replace reason with heresay and bias opinion? Some people are going overboard on the evils of our government. You do know that when Reagan made that statement about "evil empire" he was pointing at the old Soviet Union.

Art, another good post and I can't disagree with your wisdom.

I know it won't fly, but the FLIR footage was reviewed by expert wittnesses and they concluded it wasn't gunfire. I have not hear of any expert testimony stating that it WAS gunfire. I think the expert wittnesses were related to Reno and Gore and were short, fat people.

Also making a statement or drawing a conclusion without stating your "credible source" doesn't help the argument unless you are sitting on a barstool. I think I've done a good job stating my "credible sources" and separating my source from my opinion. Saying "no that isn't true" is fine for children but stating your source is how the Big Boys play. You will win more converts that way IF that is your intent.

 

[Nightfall]

I know it won't fly *fading whistling sound, followed by loud explosion*, but the FLIR footage was reviewed by expert wittnesses and they concluded it wasn't gunfire.

http://www.hardylaw.net/flir.html

The above link discusses what I was talking about. Still wish I had a link to the actual video though.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Oh, I dunno; the fact that the whole Ruby Ridge fiasco occurred on Bush I's watch while the Keystone Kops Koverup occurred on Clinton's was a stellar example of "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

Ah -- but would it have happened on Ronald Wilson Reagan's watch? I was too young to appreciate him at the time, but that man never ceases to amaze me. How do we find another?

 

[swampsniper]

telewinz, I gave up trying to win anyone over long ago. I really believe that there are two subsets of humanity that may share common vocabulary, but never common definition.
It is true that democracy decays into socialism, and it is true that rather than defend our republican ideals most politicians not only speed the process, but exist to benefit from it. They gain their power through selective redistribution of our wealth. Any potential candidate standing against this will never make it to a final ballot.
My view of all this is that the American people seem so far gone into hedonism, and the leaders so corrupted with power, that the only message I can hope to reach them with is one of belligerence.
I do not have the ego to believe that my individual efforts mean much, if any, but if enough of us stand fast, there is hope.
I can not speak for anyone else, but I believe you should know that for many of us this stand is not a bluff. I don't want to be shot down, at times I take on an issue and feel fear at where it may lead, but I am aware that the men who died to found and preserve this nation felt fear as well, and did not allow it to stop them.
Each succeeding generation becomes more brainwashed, and further down into the pit, and less likely to turn around. I don't want this to be a job for my Grandchildren. I know the truth, it is my job to defend it.

 

[telewinz]

Very good post IMHO swampsniper

Sometimes you can change someone's mind and attitude in five seconds(with a gun) other times you use your's and Art's approach and just chip away, big pieces and little pieces. Your high road approach (a red smoking jacket, pipe in hand, cool confidence) is very effective and does great credit to your beliefs.

If I had tunnel vision concerning Ruby Ridge and WACO, by now (unless I'm sitting on a barstool) I would have some doubts and and would seek additional info from some of the credible sources you have cited. "Wow this guy seems pretty intelligent and he isn't foaming at the mouth, MAYBE my conclusions are wrong! Salute.

 

[swampsniper]

Red smoking jacket and a pipe, huh? I am really an old Redneck boy living on the edge of a swamp and usually wearing Goodwill store jeans and tee shirts. I have confidence in my beliefs because I truly believe in them. I am much too old to allow myself to be dishonest with myself, if that makes sense to you. The only delusion I have is that young women think I'm sexy. I did have a recent lady friend get carded to buy a bottle of wine, but she really was after the money she thought I had. Boy, did I fool her!!! Wouldn't have worked anyhow, she was born a Democrat.
Want a good read? Go to www.lawfulpath.com
Essay called THE LAW, by Frederic Bastiat.
BOB

 

[buzz_knox]

I know it won't fly, but the FLIR footage was reviewed by expert wittnesses and they concluded it wasn't gunfire.

The conclusion was based (in part) on comparison tests done. However, during the test, the Feds provided the reenactors with M16A2, with 20 inch barrels. At the time in question, however, the agents were using M16 carbines, with 16 barrels. The added 4 inches served effectively as flash suppressors, ruining the value of the tests. But because it was a Federal report, people bought into it, just as you are.

 

[telewinz]

buzz-knox, you might be right but maybe this evidence will change your mind.

Preliminary results from a test designed to determine the source of flashes on an infrared video at the end of the Branch Davidian siege near Waco strongly suggest they were caused by sunlight and heat from FBI tanks reflecting off debris - and not government gunfire, an investigator said.

A preliminary report submitted this month by court-appointed British experts did show that flashes were clearly visible on a test infrared video recording from weapons ranging from assault rifles to shotguns, other sources said.

But the test video also recorded distinct flashes from tank exhaust and sunlight reflecting off ground debris, and gunmen firing each of the weapons were always visible on the test video, according to sources who have reviewed the report by Vector Data Research.

Flashes from gunfire on the test video were also far shorter in duration, lasting at most one-fiftieth of a second while those from debris lasted up to 19 times as long, the sources said.

"The length of the April 19 flashes are consistently much longer than what you would see from muzzle blasts," said a government investigator, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "Their duration is far closer to what you saw being generated by debris in the field test."

"There is now clear evidence to suggest that whatever caused those flashes on April 19, it wasn't guns," said the investigator. "It appears from their preliminary report that Vector is going to be systematically eliminating all of the glints as coming from muzzle blast on April 19, 1993."


"The weapons that were used and the way the test was conducted was something that was agreed on by everyone," Danforth said. Ten days before the test, Brad Swenson of Danforth's office wrote Caddell to say that on the FBI's recommendation, testers would only use one type of M-16.

List and Expert Analysis on source of ALL flashes. (57)

Passive Specular Solar Reflections (PSSR)

8 Master Event List And Vds (UK) Analysis
VDS (UK)[NL]Serial Time Event Alleged gunfire VDS (UK) Analysis and Flash Durations (seconds) Report Figure Number

1 10:53:24[PARA]to[PARA]10:53:25 Black side &.Flashes in water at deep end of pool PSSRs from water 5

2 10:54:21 Red side &.Flash at damaged structure (below window B2) PSSRs from debris amongst damage (30.13,0.20) 17,52

3 11:05:50[PARA]to[PARA]11:05:52 Green/White side&.Flashes near a dome-roofed water storage tank PSSRs from very low emissivity material on the ground (1.00, 0.87) 6, 7

4 11:14:10 Red side &.flash at damaged structure (below window B2) PSSRs from debris[PARA](0.03, 0.07, 0.03) 18

5 11:18:21[PARA]to[PARA]11:18:23 Black side &.flash from left rear hull of CEV-2 4Alleged Government Gunfire PSSRs from debris on CEV[PARA](0.90) 37

6 11:18:48 Black side &Flash at demolished corner of Gym Side panelling pushed out by CEV-2. Top edge movement of resultant debris depicted (0.53)

38

7 11:23:25 Black side &Flash near left rear of CEV-2, close to Gym Alleged Government Gunfire[PARA]ATR from debris on ground[PARA](0.20) 39

8 11:24:30[PARA]to[PARA]11:24:32 Black side &.Flashes directly to the rear of the CEV-2 Alleged Government Gunfire[PARA]ATR from debris on ground, CEV passes directly over it (0.30) 40

9 11:24:50[PARA]to[PARA]11:24:51 Black side &Flashes from window B3 or B4 overlooking Cafeteria roof Alleged Davidian Gunfire from window PSSRs from debris on roof (0.13, 0.20) 24

10 11:25:02 Red side &Flash on Chapel roof Alleged Government Gunfire or Government Flash Bang PSSRs from debris on roof (0.13, 0.03, 0.07, 0.03) 20

11 11:25:04 Red side &Flash on Chapel roof Alleged Government Gunfire[PARA]PSSRs from debris on roof (0.10) 21

VDS (UK)[NL]Serial Time Event Alleged gunfire VDS (UK) Analysis and Flash Durations (seconds) Report Figure[NL]number

12 11:26:27 Black side &Flashes near rear right drive sprocket of CEV 2 Alleged government gunfire [PARA]ATR from debris on ground[PARA](0.03, 0.03) 41

13 a. 11:28:04 to 11:28:07 [PARA]b. 11:28:13 to [PARA]11:28:14 Green side &Flashes in Courtyard in front of Residential Tower Alleged Government Gunfire[PARA]PSSRs from falling debris as CEV-2 penetrates Gym (a. image fault, 0.03, 0.07, 0.10, b. 0.70) 31

14 a. 11:28:18 [PARA]b. 11:28:21 Black side &Flashes from window B4 overlooking Cafeteria roof. Also on roof Alleged Davidian Gunfire from window PSSRs from debris on roof in all cases (a.0.10, b.0.27) 24

15 11:28:22 Black side &Flashes on Cafeteria roof PSSRs from debris on roof (0.27) 24

16 a. 11:30:08 [PARA]b. 11:30:14 Green side &.Flashes (weak) in Courtyard in front of Residential Tower PSSRs from fallen Gym debris (a. multiple 0.03, b. multiple 0.03) 31

17 11:30:26 Black side &. Flashes on Cafeteria roof. Also from window B3 overlooking Cafeteria roof Alleged Davidian gunfire from window PSSRs from debris on roof in all cases (0.40, 0.30) 25

18 11:34:32 Green side &.Flash in Courtyard in front of Residential Tower Alleged Government Gunfire[PARA]PSSRs from fallen Gym Debris (0.27) 31

19 11:34:32 Green side &Alleged man running from destroyed NE corner of Gym to dive platform at corner of Swimming Pool Alleged Government Agent[PARA]Wind blown debris material from damaged gym 32

20 11:34:33 Black side &.flashes on Cafeteria roof PSSRs from debris on roof (0.10) 26

21 11:34:45 Red side &.Flash on Chapel roof Alleged Davidian Gunfire[PARA]PSSRs from debris on the roof [PARA](0.40, 0.30) 21

22 11:38:31 Black side &. Flash 15 feet in front of CEV-2 Alleged Government Gunfire PSSRs from fallen debris (0.37) 43

23 11:38:45 Black side &. Flash at black spot at innermost penetration CEV-2 into Gym Alleged Government Gunfire[PARA]PSSRs from fallen Gym debris (0.73) 42

24 11:42:00 [PARA]to 11:42:01 Red side &Flash at damaged structure (below window B2) PSSRs from debris amongst damage (0.07, 0.07, 0.07) 18

VDS (UK)[NL]Serial Time Event Alleged gunfire VDS (UK) Analysis and Flash Durations (seconds) Report Figure[NL]number

25 11:43:33 White side &Flash on single-storey Quarters roof Alleged Davidian Gunfire[PARA]PSSRs from debris on roof (0.27) 10

26 11:43:35 to 11:43:38 White side &.Flashes from window B5 overlooking single-storey Quarters roof Alleged Davidian gunfire from window PSSRs from very low emissivity material (0.30, 0.37, 0.47, 0.23) 10

27 11:44:48 Black side &.Flash on Cafeteria roof Alleged Davidian Gunfire towards CEV-2 or Courtyard[PARA]PSSRs from debris on roof (0.17) 26

28 11:44:52[PARA]to 11:44:53 Black side &Flash on Cafeteria roof _ then flash Residential Tower window C3 followed by multiple flashes on roof Alleged Davidian Gunfire towards CEV-2 or Courtyard [PARA]PSSRs from debris at base of Tower and on roof of Cafeteria [PARA](0.17, 0.17, 0.17,0.03) 26,

29 11:45:15 to 11:45:24 White side &flashes on single-storey Quarters roof (at flag pole end) Alleged Davidian Gunfire towards CEV 1 PSSRs from debris on roof (0.13, 0.27, 0.30) 10

30 11:46: 32 to 11:46:33 Black side &.Flash on ground at base of Residential Tower. Also on Cafeteria roof twice. PSSRs from debris at base of Tower and on roof of Cafeteria (0.13, 0.10) 27,29

31 11:46:34 Green side&.Flash in Courtyard Alleged Government Gunfire PSSRs from fallen Gym debris[PARA](0.23) 33

32 11:46:36 Black side &Flash from window B4 overlooking Cafeteria roof PSSRs from debris on roof (0.03) 26

33 11:46:43 Black side &Flash from Residential Tower window C1 Alleged Davidian Gunfire towards CEV 2 PSSRs from debris at base of Tower (0.13) 29

34 11:47:05 White side &Flash from window B5 overlooking single-storey Quarters roof Alleged Davidian Gunfire towards CEV-1 PSSRs from debris on roof (0.23) 11

35 11:48:14 Black side &Flash from window[PARA]B4 or from Cafeteria roof PSSRs from debris on roof (0.23) 28

36 11:49:01 to 11:49:07 White side &Flashes from window. B5/B6 overlooking single-storey Quarters roof Alleged Davidian Gunfire towards CEV-1 PSSRs from debris on roof (0.43, 0.17, 0.33, 0.20, 0.33) 11,12

37 11:50:17 Black side&.Flash in Courtyard _ near base of Residential Tower PSSRs from debris on ground (0.23) 29

VDS (UK)[NL]Serial Time Event Alleged gunfire VDS (UK) Analysis and Flash Durations (seconds) Report Figure[NL]number

38 11:50:27 Black side&Flash from Residential Tower window C1 Alleged Davidian Gunfire[PARA]PSSRs from debris on roof (0.37) 30

39 11:50:59 to 11:51:04 White side &Flashes from window B5 overlooking single-storey Quarters roof. Also on roof near flag pole. Alleged Davidian Gunfire towards CEV-1 PSSRs from debris on roof (0.40, 0.27, 0.27) 12, 13

40 11:55:46 to 11:55:47 White side &Flashes from windows B5 and also B6 overlooking single-storey Quarters roof Alleged Davidian Gunfire PSSRs from debris on roof (0.33, 0.37, 0.33, 0.50) 13

41 11:57:26 to 11:57:28 White side &Flashes from window B5 overlooking single-storey Quarters roof. Also on roof. Alleged Davidian Gunfire towards CEV1 PSSRs from debris on roof (0.20, 0.33, 0.33) 14

42 11:58:04 White side &.``Flash from damaged window B11 as CEV-1 withdraws from main door Movement of debris out of shadow (0.47) 16

43 11:59:03 White side &Flashes on single-storey Quarters roof. Also on roof near damaged area. Movement of debris out of shadow (0.40, 0.23) 14

44 12:00:40 Black side &Flash from several yards behind CEV-2 Alleged Government Flashbang, alternatively, alleged Davidian [PARA]Gunfire[PARA]PSSRs from very low emissivity material (0.47) 14

45 12:01:06 Red Side &Flashes on ground in front of Chapel PSSRs from debris on ground (0.20) 22

46 12:05:13 to 12:05:16 White side&Flashes from windows B5 and also b6 overlooking single storey Quarters roof Alleged Davidian gunfire towards an M2 Bradley MICV[PARA]PSSRs from debris on roof (8, 0.33,0.13,0.33,0.57) 45

47 12:07:43 White side &second floor window at tower end Active Thermal Signature emanating from inside building 51

48 12:07:51 to 12:07:56 Red side &Alleged heat source at second floor window B1 at white corner Active Thermal Signature emanating from inside building _ seen through damaged window 53

49 12:08:26 Black side &First `hot return from cafeteria/kitchen entrance Probable seat of a fire _ separate from that at Red/White corner (Serial 48)

VDS (UK)[NL]Serial Time Event Alleged gunfire VDS (UK) Analysis and Flash Durations (seconds) Report Figure[NL]number

50 12:08:31 Black side&Long duration flashes from within Gym Alleged Government Weapon Discharge PSSRs from Walkway-window which has dropped onto Gym Debris (0.80) 45

51 12:08:50 Green side&Flash near corner of damaged Gym (close to Tower) Alleged Government Gunfire PSSRs from fallen Gym debris (0.80) 34

52 12:08:51 Black side &Flashes next to CEV-2 at Gym Alleged Government Gunfire PSSR from debris on ground (0.17, 0.10) 46

53 12:09:00 Green side &Flash on lean-to roof at side of Chapel Alleged Government Gunfire PSSRs from fallen window glass (the window under the Satellite Dish) Possibly blown out as a result of the fire. (0.23) 47

54 12:09:23 Green side &Flash from Inner-Courtyard to right of Residential Tower Alleged Government Gunfire [PARA]ATR (as a result of the fire) from debris on ground (0.13) 36

55 12:10:21 Black side &`Hot return from rear of collapsed Walkway at Gym Probably resulting from the spread of fire on Red side 54

56 12:10:50 White side &Person lying on single-storey Quarters roof (near flag pole) Can be discriminated due to strong object/background tonal variances 55

57 12:11:00 to[PARA]12:11:23 Green side&Multiple flashes in debris in Courtyard Alleged Government Gunfire[PARA]ATR (as a result of the fire) from debris on ground 35

 

[Duncan Idaho]

The first law of thermodynamics says that the total quantity of energy in the universe remains constant. This is the principle of the conservation of energy. The second law of thermodynamics states that the quality of this energy is degraded irreversibly. This is the principle of the degradation of energy.

Basic physics. The flashes in the FLIR (Forward Looking Infra-Red) tape are brighter - in other words "hotter" - than the other objects around them. The second law of thermodynamics A.K.A. "entropy" prohibits the possibility of a "reflection" of heat energy having a FLIR signature greater than that of the source of the alleged "reflection".


There was a time in this country when even high school kids knew stuff like that.

 

[telewinz]

Duncan

Thats fine and sounds possible but you neglect to mention the source of your analysis or is it your personal evaluation of the tapes? The analsis I quote was done by British experts to avoid a biased evaluation. Is there an independent study somewhere thats condemns the British evaluation? If not I think it should stand as the best evidence available and should not be rejected out of hand.

 

[Intune]

Ask the N. Koreans to do it and see what kind of results you get. I can see the Brit study now, "so which way would you chaps like the conclusions to read, eh, wot? Jolly good show.

When in doubt, slay 'em with pure volume. Well done.

 

[Tamara]

The conclusion was based (in part) on comparison tests done. However, during the test, the Feds provided the reenactors with M16A2, with 20 inch barrels.

They also barred independent observers and the media from the reenactment; an odd thing to do if you've nothing to hide...

 

[C.R.Sam]

Telewinz..your post, partially quoted below, would seem to reinforce what buzz_knox just said; instead of refuting him.

The weapons that were used and the way the test was conducted was something that was agreed on by everyone," Danforth said. Ten days before the test, Brad Swenson of Danforth's office wrote Caddell to say that on the FBI's recommendation, testers would only use one type of M-16.

Sam

 

[Uncle Ethan]

I cannot help but see the parallel between Waco and Masada, in Israel. In both cases the Zealots were willing to die for their beliefs, and in both cases the Government in power refused to allow any defiance of their rule. Having said that, while I was watching the fiasco I had hopes that the compound would simply surrender. I have been to the Branch Davidian Compound three times, and the destruction is total. I am probably on government video tape for doing so.

 

[Nightfall]

VDS did attempt a "Waco re-creation" at Ft. Hood. However, we now know that VDS used the wrong ammunition (it tested military ammunition, which has a flash suppressant additive, whereas FBI used civilian Federal Cartridge Co. ammunition) and the wrong weapons (standard 20" barrelled M-16s, whereas FBI used a carbine version with a 14" barrel that generates a much more prominent flash). It also tested on a day about 20 degrees cooler than April 19, 1993, which ensured that shooters stood out as glowing warm objects. At that, at least VDS did try. The remaining experts just pulled figures out of a book.... figures which related to standard military ammo and standard barrel lengths, and in some cases assessed the primary flash (the small flash near the end of the barrel, as opposed to the big secondary flash as the hot gasses expand into the air.)

Wrong ammo too?

 

[Tamara]

C.R.Sam,

The weapons that were used and the way the test was conducted was something that was agreed on by everyone," Danforth said.

Ohhh, he brought up a Danforth quote?

Ask him what he thinks about the head of the Justice Dept. personally selecting the person to do an "independant investigation" of the Justice Department, rather than recusing herself. (If there needs to be an "independant investigation" of my finances, can I pick the CPA?)

Also, ask him to expound upon why Danforth was such a fun and interesting choice as a special investigator on a matter that hinges on an RKBA issue. (Hint: Who said in 1993 "it is time to add my voice to the growing call to stop our country's obsession with guns"?) This is the same Danforth who asked Smith to bar private lawyers in the wrongful-death lawsuit from interviewing key witnesses.

More on "Danforth, Waco":

Danforth's Waco Test Rigged

Cato Blasts Danforth's Waco Report

Film Says False FBI Reports Mar Danforth's Waco Study

Head of Sept. 11 Probe Allegedly Obstructed Danforth's Waco Inquiry

The truth seeps out




Plenty more where that came from...

 

[Duncan Idaho]

Thats fine and sounds possible but you neglect to mention the source of your analysis or is it your personal evaluation of the tapes?

I have seen the FLIR video. The flashes are hotter than everything else on the screen. They are hotter than the exhaust signatures. As I said, it is a simple matter of physics, an exhaust signature "reflection" cannot register as hotter than the exhaust origin.

As I said before, there was a time in this country when even high school kids understood why that is.

 

[C.R.Sam]

Great links Tam.

Sam

 

[telewinz]

Who's Tam?

These may cast doubts but they hardly discredit the Dansford Report.

Lets see, a movie (like" Chariots of the Gods" and "Area 51")and a newspaper reporter's commentary, well thats an improvement But where is the independent study? Did the cameraman file charges against the ATF agents? Regardless, what would that have to do with WACO anyhow? Something is better than nothing but I'm still waiting for ANY expert opinion that DISPROVES the Dansford report rather than replaces it with could be, might have been, she said he say. It's like a messy divorce, the weight of evidence matters.

"I don't visualize it as propaganda," said Rep. Cliff Stearns, R-Fla. "I visualize it as an attempt to bring questions to the American people." The film is a sequel to an effort called The Rules of Engagement. Despite an Oscar nomination for best documentary and an Emmy for investigative reporting, the movie drew fire for factual inaccuracies and garnered little attention in Congress.

In discussing the gunfire allegations, the film features interviews with a former CIA employee and a former special forces sergeant. The former CIA employee, Gene Cullen, had told The Dallas Morning News several months ago that he was in a March 1993 CIA meeting in which officials discussed the deployment of more than 10 Delta Force soldiers to Waco.

He leveled far more serious charges in the film, claiming that he was a CIA case officer and learned on an overseas mission that Delta soldiers had exchanged gunfire with the Branch Davidians.

A government official familiar with Mr. Cullen, however, said he never worked as a case officer but was employed by the agency's protective security arm. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, also said there are no records of any March 1993 meeting at the CIA as described by Mr. Cullen.

"I would take everything he says with a large grain of salt," the official said.

St. Louis Post-Dispatch, July 16, 2000

Still to come are the judge's verdict, following additional testimony Aug. 2nd on one of the key questions of both this case and the independent investigation being conducted by former Missouri Sen. John Danforth: Did federal agents fire their weapons into the compound? The judge is expected to conclude they did not. Nor has any strong evidence surfaced publicly that would lead Mr. Danforth to the opposite conclusion.

The verdict does not mean the government made no mistakes in its handling of the siege, which began on Feb. 28, 1993, when it dispatched more than 70 agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms -- an unnecessarily provocative force -- to serve a search warrant. It does mean that the government did not willfully, conspiratorially commit bad acts or cause the deaths of some 80 men, women and children. It does mean that cult leader David Koresh and his so-called "Mighty Men" set their own their compound on fire and were responsible for this tragic loss of lives.

Could the government have handled the situation better? Could there have been a fire plan? A better hostage negotiating strategy? Could the agents have shown more patience and made a better attempt to arrest Mr. Koresh separately? In hindsight, the answer to these questions is yes. There were terrible mistakes with terrible consequences. But a conspiracy to fire weapons, set a fire and kill everyone inside? No. The evidence overwhelmingly said no. The jury, in only 190 minutes, overwhelmingly said no.

Did Mr. Koresh and his followers, hoarding 360 firearms, have a legal obligation to submit to lawful authority? Yes, they did. Should they have encouraged women, children and anyone else wanting to survive to leave? Yes, they should have.

The final damning evidence could be heard on tape recordings made inside the compound on small hidden devices, "Should we light the fire?" "Let's keep that fire going." "There's nothing like a good fire to bring us to the earth."

For conspiracy theorists, this will not be enough. Nothing would be enough.

A tragedy that should never have taken place did, and investigations, while too long in coming, were undertaken and are now coming to a close. They have been thorough and fair. Much has been learned in the process. Their conclusions should be embraced, and a nation can soon heal from the wounds of Waco.

 

[swampsniper]

The healing will begin when the LEOs know that "just following orders" is not the same as following the law , and let us know their decision as to which they will obey. You cannot serve two masters. The prime oath is to the Constitution.

 

[Intune]

Mortons offered to send another truck full of salt, heard the supply was below choking level.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, also said there are no records of any March 1993 meeting at the CIA as described by Mr. Cullen.

Which they could say if Mr. C got the meeting starting time off by one second. There are no records of a metal front door either.
Or how ‘bout this- I spoke to an official twice as high-ranking as their official who requested double plus anonymity and said that the govt meant to kill all those people and anyone who asked questions about it later were put on “the list.†This was discussed in-depth at a March ’93 meeting that didn’t take place.


Whenever I want to know what REALLY happened in our world I snap open my copy of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

Their conclusions should be embraced, and a nation can soon heal from the wounds of Waco.

“We’ve told you people what really happened now quit talking about it and move along! Hey you, yeah you, what’s your name & social?â€

Keep it raw and open as an example of governmental malfeasance and ineptitude.

 

[telewinz]

Swampsniper

You are correct but in this country our court system has the final say on the Constitution. Its worked pretty good for over 200 years and I'm not willing to subvert the system because of personal feelings and a made for profit movie. That might be a good combination for a blind date (pun?) but a little light in the octane rating to overturn an independent study.

If we were talking about any other topic besides WACO and Ruby Ridge these forms of "evidence" would be laughed at, even by "Tam". It proves the wisdom of our founding fathers and their understanding of human nature.

"Nor has any strong evidence surfaced publicly that would lead Mr.
Danforth to the opposite conclusion."

"Extremists on both sides seem to have already made up their minds. There is probably no test or court ruling that could change them. The rest of us should reserve judgment as we try to separate fact from spin. "

"For conspiracy theorists, this will not be enough. Nothing would be enough."

Danforth said his decision to clear the government of bad acts wasn't a close call. "What is remarkable is the overwhelming evidence exonerating the government," he said.

One new piece of evidence in the government's favor was a lie detector test that Danforth's team administered to David Corderman, the agent who fired the three pyrotechnic tear gas rounds. The test indicated that Corderman was answering truthfully when he said he had not fired the fire-causing tear gas at the building.

During the civil trial, lawyers for the Branch Davidians had suggested that Corderman had started one of the fires in the building by firing pyrotechnic rounds into the structure.

 

[Orthonym]

NOPE

The Petit Jury has the the final say on the Constitution. Marbury vs. Madison is nonsense.


Edit: in re the "widow's son" remark above: Sorry, sometimes even Masons have wrong ideas.

 

[hammer4nc]

tele said:

...but in this country our court system has the final say on the Constitution

Then, goes on to paste various quotes from a "political" report (i.e., Danforth), that has nothing to do with courts at all. First time you mixed up judicial and political evidence, you could be excused for ignorance. At this point its obvious you are purposely trying to mislead. Why is that, tele? Still, regarding Ruby Ridge, the govt. failed miserably in court, yet you seem to still imply total innocence for the agents, guilt for Weaver.

Your posts are becoming increasingly disjointed, we're getting worried.

How's progress on the suggested reading list?