Can we be honest about what kind of accuracy you are getting from your AKs (esp WASR)

[d2wing]

Your's I guess because you're the one trying to bs everybody. I doubt many experienced shooters will get as good a group with a AK as an AR or even close. That's common knowledge.

 

[Slamfire]

50 yards, using a Bench as support, with a WASR.




50 yards, 10 shots, prone with a sling, with a .22LR.



At 100 yards, the .22LR still groups better than the WASR.

 

[AK103K]

Your's I guess because you're the one trying to bs everybody.

I'm not trying to BS anyone. I own a number of both type rifles and shoot them on a regular basis. How about you?

I doubt many experienced shooters will get as good a group with a AK as an AR or even close. That's common knowledge.

Common actual shooting knowledge, or common I heard knowledge?

If I substituted my SP1, Bushmaster, or Armalite M15A4(C) for the AK's used in shooting the targets in the above pics, the groups would be very similar. I know this because I shoot them the same way, and get the same basic results.


If you choose to believe that AK's in general are inaccurate, hey, knock yourself out. I know for a fact that its an untrue statement, and I just get annoyed at people when they just keep blurting out the same old tired crap. Next thing you'll tell me is, the AK's stock is to short and the controls are unusable. Or do you want to save that for another thread?

 

[Slamfire]

If you choose to believe that AK's in general are inaccurate, hey, knock yourself out

Ak's are fine as a battle rifle. I think it is the best battle rifle of the second half of the 20th Century. You can give it to any ignorant peasant and it will fire. That is good enough for draftees, and for a peacetime Army that does not practice shooting.

As much as I am proud of my marksmanship skills, talking to fellow highpower competitors who are combat vets, target accuracy is of little use in combat. They seldom saw an enemy, what was more important was putting a lot of fire on a tree line, hedgerow, and getting the enemy to keep his head down.

One Vietnam vet, I asked him how he sighted in his M14 before helicopter deployments. He said if he could hit a 55 gallon drum at 50 yards, he considered his rifle sighted in!

He was incidentally a Master class shooter, he understood what rifle accuracy was, and the limits.

 

[barnetmill]

My romanian ak was tested at 100 feet of a sand bag. Using chinese ammo with slant muzzle flash hidder gave 5 rd group of 2 inches (6 " at 100 yrds); removal of slank break FH changes point of impact and reduced group size to 1 inch (3" at 100 yards). AK's can have accuracy equivalent to rack grade MI's if they are made right. Often the sights are loose and the flash hidders move about leading to inaccuracy. Of course it depends on the barrel. An AR with a good barrel and its superior sights will generally beat an AK off a range sand bag. For ranges under 100 yards I select the ak, for longer ranges a good M14. AKs are more reliable and used to be cheaper. The difference in price seems to be growing smaller.

 

[Nautilus]

Just an interesting thing to add to this thread...

I just got the March/April copy of rifle shooter magazine. There is a test of three AK's. All three of century's inexpensive models... The WASR-10, the GP1975 and the M70 underfolder. This is a real test done by an unbiased source... Groups were at 100 yards using open sights.

Accuracy results are the averages of three - five shot groups fired from a sandbag rest at 100 yards.

Romanian GP WASR-10
American Eagle FMJ: 5.61"
Winchester Super X SP: 3.01"
Wolf steel case FMJ: 6.93"

Century Arms GP 1975
American Eagle FMJ: 2.16"
Winchester Super X SP: 4.85"
Wolf steel case FMJ: 3.93"

Yugo M70 AB2
American Eagle FMJ: 1.36"
Winchester Super X SP: 1.82"
Wolf steel case FMJ: 2.82"

Not match grade, but also not exactly the minute of barn you hear some people complaining about.

I personally own a rather large collection of AK's.... and my experience is some what similar to those described above. I personally have not seen many sub-2" groups using iron sights at 100 yards, and the few that I have seen I've written off as luck because the normal grouping for me is 3"-6" depending on rifle and ammo. I have seen lots of sub 2" groups using quality ammo and an optic so I've always thought the limitation to my accuracy was my inability to use the iron sights, low quality ammunition and not the fault of the rifle due to the improved grouping when using an optic and quality ammo.

Although this thread originally was discussing real world accuracy of AK's... like all AK threads it has turned into a comparison between the AK & AR. In my experience... I've always been more accurate with an AR. Not the massive difference that many seem to post about, but my avg group size with an AK is 3-6" and my avg group size with my AR's is about 2-4". I mostly shoot cheap steel cased ammo out mf my AR's as well so it can't be blamed on ammo, so I have always just added it up to being a slightly more accurate rifle out of the box, with much better sights.

So in summary yes I believe the AR's are slightly more accurate, part of that i'm sure is the design of the rifle, but IMO a lot of that is the quality of the sights. But, in my experience AK's are reasonably accurate guns if you actually shoot for accuracy and are more than sufficient for a battle rifle, the problem in my opinion is a lack of ability with the AK's more crude sights and maybe the fact that because people don't expect much for accuracy out of an AK they never actually take the time to learn how to use the sights and improve their ability with the rifle.

 

[BoltCollector]

Gettin minute of beer can @ 100 yards (@ 3m.o.a) with my Romanian that looks like it was built by a 3 year old. Sometimes you get a shooter, sometimes you don't. Had a real nice AMD 65 that looked much better, but shot like crap.
TR

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Its not. Any of them should be capable of 3-4" groups at 100 yards with ammo they like

Keep in mind that shooting from a rest and shooting standing are not the same.

 

[AK103K]

Keep in mind that shooting from a rest and shooting standing are not the same.

If the gun is capable, then the rest falls squarely on the shooter. Dont you think? Just because I cant doesnt me you cant, and vice versa.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Im sorry but claims that a AK style rifle should normally shoot 3 inch groups (or less lol) and if it doesn't it is the shooters fault I don't buy that.I won't claim to be a expert marksman but having used 3 AK's with different ammo if a AK does 3 inch or less consistantly than it is a special AK with special ammo.I would believe it was me messing up shooting a AK if I sucked shooting other rifles to and I don't.

I doubt many experienced shooters will get as good a group with a AK as an AR or even close. That's common knowledge.

At one point it was common knowledge that the earth was flat. So much for common knowledge.

I am convinced much of what is common knowledge is merely heresay passed around by people while playing Counterstrike.

"Ooo, I PWND you with the AK!"
"Yeah right, the AK could never make a headshot at that distance. It isn't accurate enough..."

Fact is, most shooters can't shoot well enough to shoot to the capabilities of the AK. These people will be the first to tell you how much the rifle's accuracy sucks, when in reality, these people have no business judging the accuracy of any rifle.

My brother and I each bought $279 WASR in Aug of 04, just in case the original AWB didn't sunset. The rifles were rough around the edges and required minor Dremeling in the magazine wells and such, but the sight blocks were, as near as we could tell, straight. The rifles were reliable, and when we did our part, it was obvious that they were more accurate than some might initially give them credit for. Each came with a signed 100 meter test target depicting a group less than 5 inches. This was with iron sights and the rifle's horindous trigger slap. Improving ergonomics and trigger pull is a simple task on the AK, and each rifle came with a side mount bracket for Russian optics. With the Kobra reflex sight on mine, it is truly capable of as much accuracy as most are capable of shooting with any rifle. Mine will consistently group 4 inches or less with Wolf MC, slowfire prone, at 100 yards. So will my brothers. My uncle has a stamped receiver MAK-90 that will do 3 to 4 inches with iron sights. That's 3 AKs, two of which are bottom of the barrel Century WASRs, and every one of them can group around 4 inches at 100 yards and keep 75%+ COM at 200 yards from field positions at a rapid pace--a feat we've accomplished on more than one occasion. So yes, I am inclined to believe that if someone can't hit what they are aiming at with an AK, it is the Indian not the arrow.

The fact is, wildly inaccurate AKs are about as common as abysmally unreliable ARs. They exist, but are the exception. Most AKs are accurate enough to put aimed fire COM out to at least 200 yards. And most ARs function fine with a little bit of cleaning. In terms of accuracy, the AR will probably always have an advantage, just like no modification done to an AR will ever make it as intrinsically reliable as an AK. But the practical differences between each in the field are not as large as some would have you believe.

 

[d2wing]

I should apologize as my opinion, based on my experience and many others that they were not capable of that level of accuracy, was refuted. Still not
very accurate but better than I thought. I have owned 5 AKs and SKS rifles of different types and all were pretty bad. Before you flame me as a bad shot I qualified as an expert in the service and am a certified instructor. I once shot 9 out of 10 shots into 1 hole with an M-14 in training at 25 meters. I did my part. Before you ask, I don't have a pic of it. Maybe I need to take my current AK (Saiga) to the range again.

 

[lionking]

MTmilitiaman,since you grabbed a quote of what I said,I mean with stock iron sights.They may indeed shoot better with dot scopes or scopes.

But ya know what,maybe I just suck shooting AK's.But my targets posted reflect what I came up with.So at the very least I know where I stand as far as shooting them.But I don't think the wide percentage of shooters even experienced ones will do 3inches all day long with one.Some of you might,most of us won't.Most of us will shoot better with other designs though.

 

[AK103K]

Let me ask those that dont think they will shoot that well, did you explore different brands and/or lots of ammo to see what the gun liked, and did you really give it a good try to see exactly how they shoot with each?

Or did you just grab whatever was available and not make out, and figure that thats the best you can expect with anything, so why bother, and declare the gun inaccurate?

Looking at Nautilus's posted results, there's a fair amount of difference between the different guns and the same ammo. This has been one of my points all along, if you have ammo the gun likes, it can and will shoot better than most expect, and often better than many seem to be able to shoot. If you never tried to figure out what works best, and then blame the gun as being inaccurate, your really not being fair in your assessment.

The biggest problem accuracy wise with the AK's and SKS's is usually the quality of the ammo. Wolf has generally been the most available, and unfortunately, the least consistent and accurate. Not that there arent good lots of it out there, I've got a couple of cases set aside that are very good, but in general, its usually been a 50/50 proposition. It also seems to have the highest rate of misfires. I usually get at least one or two out of a case, and often more.

Barnaul on the other hand, was almost always very good stuff, especially the 125 grain SP's. All my AK's seemed to like it and do well with it.

This isnt just an AK problem either, AR's or anything else can and do have the same issue. I have an AR that will literally put my reloads into one little hole when shot from prone off a bipod. Same gun, same time and conditions, switch the mag for USGI Lake City, and I'm lucky if I get 2" groups. So ammo is a real issue, no matter what your shooting.


Of course, all of the above is assuming you are a capable shooter yourself too.

 

[czarjl]

I have an SKS that more for fun than any serious shoot. I use cheap surplus ammo and so long as it goes bang and the bullet come out of the muzzle and goes some were in the relative area I was aiming I’m happy with it.