Can we be honest about what kind of accuracy you are getting from your AKs (esp WASR)

[rich636]

Minute of chest with my SAR-1 and wolf ammo.

 

[benEzra]

I'm also probably not a great rifleman seeing as I've tried to lean to shoot on my own using this AK.

Self-taught shooters can be/become very good shooters.

Some good tips are here:

http://www.snipercountry.com/mark1.htm

And some personal AK-specific observations (from upthread):

Just as with a pistol, focus hard on the front sight, breathe in and let the breath halfway out, hold it, and squeeze the trigger slowly until the shot takes you by surprise (don't hold your breath too long; stop and take another breath if you need to). Hold the trigger back for a second before letting it reset. Don't rush the shots just because you don't have to cycle a bolt. Speed will come, but accuracy first. Take at least 5 seconds per shot, more if you need to; if you can't make yourself go slowly, load the chamber with one round at a time until you get the hang of it.

When shooting from the bench, if the rifle is wobbling, figure out a position in which you can hold it steady. If you don't have a good benchrest, shooting from prone or with your elbows braced against a bench works well.

Also, AK's don't typically benchrest as well as some rifles; the barrel/receiver vibration resulting from the heavy gas piston being blasted off the cantilevered gas block can make the rifle jump off a hard rest, resulting in much more scatter than you'd expect, and resting on the magazine is worst of all. I get best results from a bench shooting from a soft support placed as far back under the receiver as possible (i.e., just in front of the magazine), not under the handguard or barrel.

If you have trouble shooting from a prone position using a 30-round magazine, you might want to pick up a 20-rounder at some point. They don't get in the way nearly so much when prone.

 

[mudriver]

Did a quick test of accuracy and my SKS did about 2.8" at 100 with Wolf and my Saiga .223 did 4" at 100. I can usually cut groups in half with handloads, so that would put it close to what most of the AR's I see will do.

 

[CTW]

We have an 18" steel plate hanging from a chain at 100 yards at my range and I can usually hit it every shot with my WASR 10. Not a target rifle by any means, but she will do what she was built to do.

 

[jpwilly]

There you have it...some groups are mearly inches others, well, you'll need a yard stick!

 

[lionking]

Im sorry but claims that a AK style rifle should normally shoot 3 inch groups (or less lol) and if it doesn't it is the shooters fault I don't buy that.I won't claim to be a expert marksman but having used 3 AK's with different ammo if a AK does 3 inch or less consistantly than it is a special AK with special ammo.I would believe it was me messing up shooting a AK if I sucked shooting other rifles to and I don't.

Go with whatever,but having tried out a test I know what I know as too what a normal AK with normal ammo can do when Im using it and I can tell you it isn't as accurate as many other types of military rifles that I own and have shot.


A run of the mill AK is what it is,a worthy reliable combat rifle that will probably bring down a person or game at reasonable range if a aimed shot is used but it isn't a 2 or 3 MOA rifle at least not with iron sights.

 

[helz_mcfugly]

I use to shoot at the 50 yard range with mine and I had a 9x scope on it and would get 3" to 4" groups. at 100 yard 5" to 6". funny story. I was at the range a couple months back and this guy starts telling me his story about how he builds all his Ak47's and Ak74's and what they were and what they shot and that his were some of the most accurate of AK's far better then any off the shelf AK. I didnt wanna get to close to him cuz I might have stepped on his ego. so after he tells me how good of an AK builder he was for about 20 minutes I say good talkin to ya and we return to our stations on the 100 yard range. I was shooting an AR and had a 24x scope. he was about 4 seats down from me so I figured Ide watch what his AK's can do. He started firing iron sights about a shot a second and emptied about 3 30 round mags at a round target that saw about 24"tall and 16" wide. after he had done that he stuck in another 30 rounds and fired a little slower, he didnt have a spotter scope so he didnt know how he was doing, but I did, he hit the paper twice out of all that shooting. once on the edge of the paper and once on the target. I got a laugh out of it and went about what I was doing. I cant say he lied to me about his being more accurate, maybe someone else tested them,lol it was a good laugh, though I would share. I do miss my AK and will prolly grab another one day if come upon one for a good price when I have some cash burning my pocket.

 

[lionking]

for claims that a AK style and AR-15/M4 are close in normal accuracy I can't agree with.My experience shooting a H-Bar,a friends Bushmaster Dissapator and this Bushmaster M4 in the photo tells me a different thing when in my hands.Now with the large aperature on a AR-15 yes groups haven't been stellar when I shot but with the small aperature I usually get a nice tight pattern when I concentrate on shooting skills save the occassional flyer *cough*

 

[helz_mcfugly]

when it comes to accuracy the AR is far superior, when it comes to power and reliability in dirty combat environments the AK is superior. kinda like compairing a corvette and a hum-v. corvette, fast, clean and grabs the pavement, hum-v, tough, durable, and can climb mountains.

 

[benEzra]

A run of the mill AK is what it is,a worthy reliable combat rifle that will probably bring down a person or game at reasonable range if a aimed shot is used but it isn't a 2 or 3 MOA rifle at least not with iron sights.

for claims that a AK style and AR-15/M4 are close in normal accuracy I can't agree with.My experience shooting a H-Bar,a friends Bushmaster Dissapator and this Bushmaster M4 in the photo tells me a different thing when in my hands.Now with the large aperature on a AR-15 yes groups haven't been stellar when I shot but with the small aperature I usually get a nice tight pattern when I concentrate on shooting skills save the occassional flyer *cough*

Looking back over the thread, I think most of us who are saying the platform is capable of 3-4 MOA or better are using optics or improved sights. Using an optic on the AK will help greatly with the sighting issue. I run a Kobra optic on mine (1.8 MOA dot, plus other reticles), and my iron sights are strictly BUIS.

You are not the only shooter who has trouble with the Russian style factory irons; as I mentioned upthread, these are easy rifles to shoot badly, and the sights get a lot of the credit for that. That does not mean the rifle is mechanically as inaccurate as it's often claimed to be, though. The AR has an accuracy edge and somewhat greater effective range, yes, but the AK is far more than a 100-yard gun, and 300 yard hits are doable with an optic and halfway decent Wolf.

FWIW, on a defensive carbine, I would definitely want an optic or luminous sights anyway. Iron sights are pretty much useless in low light, in my experience.

 

[Eagles6]

I used to get 2" groups at 100 yds with my sar-1, open sights or red dot. After about 10,000 rds and no feelable rifling in the last inch of the barrel I can still get 3-4 in groups.

 

[Matrix187]

I have a Romy G kit build, made my lancaster. Great rifle, but I need to test my accuracy with it here soon. I'll get back to this thread later.

 

[MT GUNNY]

I watch something Earlier today about the Israeli Galii bing more accurate Because the Rear sight was moved back on the cover closer to the Eye. It was also a Aperture rear sight instead of standard AK rear.

 

[d2wing]

It seems the answer is yes and no and it depends, kinda like Bill Clinton not having sex with that girl.

 

[punkndisorderly]

I never had any luck with the Chinese AK I owned in the mid 90's. It had reciever cover with built in scope rings and a 3x9 noname scope. Has to be the worst way to mount a scope other than duct tape. You could actually move the scope around with your hand.

Took the scope off and tried iron sights and was no better. No one else could get a group better than 8" or so at 100m.

I ended up trading it in for a bushmaster AR and never looked back. My groups instantly shrunk to 3" at 100m with iron sights.

I did shoot an AK at the range lately (believe WASR) and was doing 2" at 50. Not sure how much of that was the rifle and how much of it was improvement on my part in the last decade. I will say that the trigger on that WASR was much better than I remember on an AK.

 

[lionking]

BebEzra I'll go with what you say,I haven't tried dot scopes and they may indeed enhance accuracy.My thoughts are for target shooting the front sight on typical Kalishnikov are too fat,a thinner one would make it easier to line up the bulls.But they weren't made to shoot targets,they were made to shoot in chaos so a fatter sight makes sense I guess.

But then again Mosin and SVT sights are about the same in style,yet they usually shoot better groups than a Kalishnikov but then a Dragunov is a AK style yet is more accurate than a AK in 7.62x39.I saw Krochus post his target with a AR-15 in 7.62x39 and it was a decent tight group so the cartridge seems to have the potential to do decent groupings.

It could be different factors that tends to make a AK do more spread out groupings certainly the front sight is one issue but it also could be the sight radius what do AK's have a 16" barrel usually?,and while I shoot one sometimes it could also be a rifle that one needs to shoot often to bring out the best it can do.Many have claimed the Saiga do better than average,maybe one day if I see a guy at the range with one I'll ask if I can shoot a couple tests with it at 100yds to see for myself.

Im no way out to dis a AK,I think they are great in their own right but putting them to a target trying to get groupings when someone says" my WASR" or just about any AK "will do 3" at 100yds consistantly" specially with iron sights they must have a real special AK

 

[AK103K]

From the standpoint of a target rifle, shooting at bullseye type targets, the AR with its target type aperture sights will usually shoot a tighter group than an AK. Theres no argument there.

Take the fixed aiming point away, and the groups between the two are very similar. Put a red dot on both, and again, the groups are also very similar.

One thing I've always found interesting about complaints about the AK's iron sights is, they are the same style/type sight as most of the older surplus military rifles, and most all US hunting rifles that most of us "old" boys learned to shoot on. If anything, the AK's sights are better than most of the hunting rifles. Yet, you hear all these complaints about how bad the AK's sights are to shoot with. Anyone want to explain that to me?

The 3-4" at 100 yards is nothing special, and as I said before, I have, and have had a number of different AK's, across the price ranges, from the lowly SAR's to the so called better quality guns, and 3-4" seems to be about average for me when the gun has decent ammo and is barreled in the country of origin. I have a Krebs Saiga conversion, which has a 14" barrel, and its the one that shot the 100 yard groups on those targets above. The head portion of those targets is 6" too by the way, so you have a better idea as to the size of those groups. Those groups were shot with a dot, the SAR's groups were with the issue iron sights, and that is a 200 yard target, so you do the math as far as MOA goes. I dont shoot bullseye targets, nor do I shoot from a bench, with either platform, and my AR targets, using either a dot or aperture and GI spec ammo, are again, very similar to my AK groups at the same distances.

Its not just the difference between AR and AK. These were shot with my SOCOM and one of my AK's at 100 yards. At this point, I dont remember which one was shot with which. Do you think it really matters?




Ammo also has a lot to do with what your getting downrange. If your all worried about shooting little groups on paper, do you know what ammo your rifle likes? If so, and if its possible, when you find something it likes, do you buy us as much of that lot as you can when you do find it? This isnt just an AK problem, it goes for anything. My old MP5 would shoot 12" groups at 100 yards with the old Norinco/China North bulk 9mm. Switch mags and put Federal 9BP in the gun, and the groups would shrink to about 4" on the same target.



I think part of the problem here is, there are to many variables to really be objective about the whole thing. There are also a lot of unbalanced comparisons when the comparisons are done. To be fair, you have to make the comparisons at least the same sort of fruit. (gun and shooter)

I still stand by what I said earlier, its usually not the guns fault if you cant shoot it well.

If you've actually taken the time and effort to learn the rifle/platform, and know how it shoots, then you'll know whats reality and what isnt. Learning on one platform, and shooting it well doesnt mean your going to pick up something else and right away be an expert with it, just because you shoot the other gun well (do you shoot it well all the time too, or just that one time?). I hear this all the time about the AK's ergonomics and how its not possible to easily work one, or to shoot one well, due to one excuse or another, usually from someone whos whole experience with one was a couple of mags out of his cousin Billy Bobs AK off the back porch at the 4th of July. Yup, that boys got it all figured out.

Believe it or dont, the AK and AR really aint all that far apart. Their human counterparts on the other hand........

 

[lionking]

good post AK103 and pictures speak more than words and your pics do speak.Obviously you are good with them (AK's).It is true that I pick different rifles to take to the range most of the time and dedicated shooting of a AK might bring the shooter (me) better results.

True that ammo has a bearing,the SAR2 certainly seemed to shoot better with Wolf black box than other brands when I tried it last weekend.

 

[d2wing]

It's not the ammo, the sights or the shooter, it is the gun. Ak's, SKS' are not very accurate. If you are getting similar groups to an AR you have a problem and it's not with a gun.

 

[AK103K]

And what are you basing that statement on? Just for curiosity sake.

 

[Marcus5aurelius]

There is nothing wrong with the AK's design for accuracy. Its only the fact that most people dont add scopes and bipods to a "short range" rifle like the AK. First time ever shooting I took it to the range and standing I hit the target everytime at 50yrds. The previous owner shoots competition and he said 2.5in-3in at 100yrds was average. Unless you have access to the longer distance ranges out west it doesn't matter all that much, it hits the paper, its most likely your aim so dont blame the gun

 

[carbine85]

I can honestly say my Mac90 sucks big time. 6-8 at 100 yards and a man sized target @ 200. It's probably the worst of any rifle I own including M1 carbines.

 

[gbran]

d2wing

It's not the ammo, the sights or the shooter, it is the gun. Ak's, SKS' are not very accurate.

Add my Ruger Mini 30 to your list. Not very accurate, but probably a good manstopper. Shooting torso's doesn't require a tack driver.

 

[d2wing]

I like the guns, it's blaming the shooter that bothers me. While it's possible to get decent groups with an AK, to say that it's the shooters fault if his groups don't compare to those with an AR, is just not true. :banghead:

 

[AK103K]

I like the guns, it's blaming the shooter that bothers me.

Why should the truth bother you? The person shooting the gun is almost always the weakest link in the whole equation, and more often than not, cant shoot up to the guns capabilities, even those of the AK or SKS.

While it's possible to get decent groups with an AK, to say that it's the shooters fault if his groups don't compare to those with an AR, is just not true.

Whose fault is it then?