Can you tell me about this knife?

[bikerdoc]

Given to me my the daughter of an Air Force chaplain, deceased for 12 years.
She found it as it is, in a box during a recent move. The only marking is the word KINFOLKS, on the sheath and knife.
Full tang with 3 pins, scale is probably plastic, I suspect the steel is 1095. Sturdy and well made, except the gaurd is aluminium.
As you can see the edge is dinged in two places and it is rough sharpened and will need some TLC.
Any info will be most apreciated.
Thanks and God Bless,
Doc

 

[Carl Levitian]

I saw a zillion of those in the 1950's. Brands varried from Colonial, Schrade, Imperial, Edge brand from Germany, as well as your Kinfolks.

They were a low cost economy knife, made to resemble the Bowie knife fashion in knives, following the movie The Iron Mistress with Alan Ladd, and the TV show Jim Bowie with Scott Forbes I think his name was. I had one from Imperial.

Even though they were a low cost knife, they were actually a very good servicable knife. All I ever saw was good simple carbon steel that sharpened up good, and held a edge well. Usually the sheaths left something to be desired.

Looking at the photo, I'm wondering if the scales are plastic or jigged shin bone. can't tell from the pic. In the early 50's some shin bone was used, and plastic became more common.

Some of these knives actually predated the movie and tv craze, and some were around in the 40's.

It's a good using knife. I'd go ahead and sharpen it up and use well.

Carl.

 

[rcmodel]

Here's probably way more then you want to know about the KINFOLKS knife company.

http://www.kinfolksinc.com/mission.htm

They were a major player in WWII combat knife production, making the M3 trench knife, M4 Carbine bayonet, V-44 Survival Bowie, and a KABAR'ish 6" Combat knife.

But after the war ended, and all the government contracts canceled, they needed something to sell cheaply on the civilian market.

What you got is one of them!

Here is a KINFOLKS V-44 from my collection.
Blade = 9 1/4" - LOA = 14 1/2":


rc

 

[bikerdoc]

you guys are great,
thanks a bunch my friends,
Yes thats a lot of info and I thank you.
Iagree it might be bone
will clean and sharpen and post more pics, so excited i have something to do.
Doc

 

[Rupestris]

Thats a great knife Doc.

You're probably familiar with the Kephart style knives. Horace Kephart also carried a small patch/caper knife that was actually made from a similar knife. I used to think his was either a Colonial or Imperial. After looking at yours and seeing three thin pins as opposed to two large pins, it looks like it was a Kinfolks.

His appears to be the same knife but with the fish scaler on the spine. Here is a pic of my Imperial with the scaler:


And a pic of the Kephart Companion:

You can see that it has the same number of serations and a slight drop to the tip like the full blades with the clip points.

One of these days I'll get around to tearing mine apart and making a copy of the Kephart Companion. If it ever gets warm outside...

The Imperial versions can be found at local flea markets for $5 on a good day. Enjoy that one.

Chris

 

[bikerdoc]

Chris
thanks, read the link RCmodel posted, real interesting. Ya I dont care if it is a inexpesive old knive, it has history and character, it is cleaning up real nice, it is 1095 and taking an edge you would not believe. A little 0000 steel wool on the rust and we will have some pics in a few days.

 

[Rupestris]

it is 1095 and taking an edge you would not believe

I can believe the edge it takes when I sharpen the Imperial. I can't imagine what the edge on yours will be like. I'm sure it'll split a strand of DNA but I could be underestimating your ability.

Looking forward to the pics of the cleaned up classic.

 

[bikerdoc]

Brother Chris,
Ya it is coming along may be done tommorow if I dont get interupted by my my idiot step daughter and her daily pissy a## crisises, we have custody of her 2 and 3 year old, so they are a full time job also. Raising kids at 60 sucks, thank god my wife is 10 years younger.
Good news, if you can call it good, is doc said that left hand nerve damage, is not getting better so may be looking at a big payday from workers comp.when all this plays out.
On the bright side I got more time to play with guns, knives and making canes. Just move slower than I used to.
You will like the cleaned up version, as for split DNA, I will settle for whittling hair.
Thanks for being as excited about this project as I am.
Doc

 

[Macmac]

odd I replied, typed anyway yesterday to this thread, but nothing shows up.. hmmm must not have hit post reply.. I was just commenting on 'something to do' since I don't know anything about that knife, other than is ain't stainless..

 

[bikerdoc]

Mac
It aint stainless for sure, but the heat treat on the 1095 is incredible, this old inexpensive knive is fast becoming my favorite. Will post after pic when done. Got a sheath kit from tandy that is pefect for it.

 

[rcmodel]

I have a very strong feeling those old knife makers knew something about tempering steel that has been lost over time.

Or else, steel changes grain structure over 50 - 100 years, if left to it's own devices!

I know that is far fetched.
But I have found the old blades, even the less expensive ones from the teens, through the 1950's, are just good beyond any other reasonable explanation.

I have a Marbles Woodcraft made in 1916 that takes an incredible edge, and keeps it through many pounds of meat & hair. When it does need sharpening eventually, a very few strokes on a ceramic rod has it ready for next hunting season.

Same with some WWII Westerns that I could use for shaving.

And several WWII Camillus & KABAR MkII's that stay very sharp, even when used to chop brush & weeds in the fall.

They all sharpen far more easily then any modern knife I own, and stay sharp longer in use.

Was it the skill of the old-time makers, or the "aged" grain structure of the old steel?

rc

 

[7X57chilmau]

Honestly, I think it was the simple steels they used. I've owned knives made from just about every ubersteel available today, and been disappointed by most. If it holds an edge (most hold only mediocre edges), it takes ages to sharpen. If a mortal can sharpen it, rest assured it'll need it again soon. Such it is with so many of our advanced tool steels....

A few years ago, I decided to build a forge and try my own hand at knife making. At the time, I carried an AUS8a D. Ralph Paragee, a pretty nice folder. After some practice, I made a new EDC from 5160 spring steel, a simple low-alloy chromium-carbon steel, that behaves much like 1080 or 1085. I hardened and tempered it just like the smiths of old would have, cherry, oil quench, differential temper, edge straw, spine blue. Damned if'n that simple blade doesn't take a sharper edge than the stainless Paragee did, but it holds it much longer as well.

Such a blade takes me 20 minutes to put the first edge on, entirely by hand, with oil stones, water stones, leather and rouge. That's the first edge, done right after hardening, starting from the 45 degree chamfer I ground when finalizing the shape of the blade.... Re-sharpening takes less time than assembling the gear to get it done. 5 minutes if I abused the edge....

Now, the scary part is that my heat treatment tech is horribly barbaric. I'm NOT able to get "the most" from my steel, according to the metalurgists. For that, I'd need long heat soaks, careful temperature control beyond what my eye can judge, exotic quenches.....

People today want stainless. Knives like my old Buck 103 that will never show a spot of corrosion, but which won't hold an edge for the life of'em.

These people think "factory edges" actually exist. I've yet to see one.

Gimme a knife with steel that rusts, FORGED to orient the grain, PACKED along the edge, and I'll use the stainless piece to spread the butter...

J

 

[theotherwaldo]

I prefer barbaric hammered steel to punched-out-and-ground stainless, too!

 

[Macmac]

Doc, Just so we'er on the same page I have no use for stainless in a knife other than the Swiss Knife which is never really sharp. With that said I have no use of serrated edges either. That would mean I wanted a saw.

I can see that knife is a carbon steel which suits me fine. After ya git her fixed if ya like you can send it to me ;D

7X57chilmau . I don't belive the steel changes, but what I think you encounter from time to time is the hardness isn't all the way from the edge to the spine on a good many blades, which when sharpened enough can and will past the point of where the hard edge was.

Some blades I made were 'differntially hardened. What this means to me is the edge is left pretty hard in the tempering drawing process, but the back of the blade is drawn more, for more flex in the back of the blade.

There are a varriety ot methods to pull that stunt off, and which method, depends on the use for the blade.

Many people don't understand hardening, and then another process called tempering, also drawing, both meaning the same thing.

People talk of queching too, and one of these is to gain hardness, which in carbon steel will be glass hard. That mean no flexing what so ever and a drop from a few feet will shater a blade if it hits a hard surface, like a cement floor.

Tempering and or drawing don't realy require a quench, but people do to speed things up. The temps matter when you temper and draw, as the more heat there is the softer the blade gets. If you controll the heat you can work more into the spine of a blande than the edge gets.

Once you hit a temp, to stop it all that really needs done is to remove the heat. if you made carbon steel under terms of tempering say 375 degrees F, and remove the heat the steel isn't going to get any hotter, and can air cool.

There are limitless possibilities under tempering/drawing, because you can controll this process so many differnt ways.

So with say 2 horse shoe rasps you could made a big camp knife, and or a big lance point. The lance would need to be at about 'spring temper' evenly, where the big knife could be combined with a partial spring temper and the edge left a lot harder.

When I mention camp knives I usually mean Rio Grande Camp Knives.

 

[Macmac]

Yeah theotherwaldo , no hair on our knuckels eh? ;D

 

[7X57chilmau]

Mac, you and I are on the same page

Differentially tempering blades: I do this with all mine. On a knife like this:



I heat the entire blade and handle to critical temp (what I'd describe as early orange-red, a touch hotter than cherry), then quench in used oil bath.

Then I gingerly wire brush the blade and handle to bare metal. A drop now ends the knife. Like you say, glass hard and fragile!

Now, I want the entire handle drawn to blue/purple, and the spine and tip the same. But I want the belly and most of the edge a straw colour. So, returning to the forge, I rake the coals flat, and tamp them down. Then I put the knife on top, handle only over the coals, until the handle draws yellow, brown, purple, then blue.

Now, I quickly grab the handle with tongs, turn the knife around, blade only over the coals, spine down, edge in the air. Draw temper until the spine is blue. If the edge begins to yellow at this point, I'll quickly cool the edge either by blowing on it, or dipping it in the oil for a moment.... Just the edge... And continue drawing the spine to purple/blue. Once the spine is drawn enough, if the edge isn't yellow yet, I'll turn the knife on its side to hurry that up. Stop at straw-yellow for most of my knives, brown to purple for fightin' knives.

I agree, quench is unnecessary following the temper, with the steels we are using (5160/1095, etc). Like others, I do it just so I can handle my new lovely that much sooner...

I love makin' blades... So much damned fun!

J

 

[Macmac]

7X57chilmau , I would agree with that.

I also have a few questions. I don't have any extra anything at the moment, and each day it seems any time I turn a key on anything that has one something breaks. I think I am doomed at this point.

BUT I wonder if you ever thought to use the grip on a knife like this as a flint and steel, and if you have and you get sparks when I can I would like to aquire one of these blades.

Now i can go make one, but sometimes it is more fun to collect and to trade.

Of course I don't know if you commonly make this type, and or if it is one of a kind to you.

One thing I think you should consider is a makers mark, which could be anything you like. I made several and the one I use most was a gift.

It takes a long time to anneal a round chain saw file and draw something of meaning on the squared and polished end then harden it to be a stamping mark for cherry hot steel, but one way or another it is a wise thing to do.

I do silver work and so made many chisels, engravers, and stamps that will do silver, and can do screechin hot steel in a limited way. Your working is clearly worthy of a makers mark as I see it.

Oh that 2 onch knife was a harden quench broken blade. It happens and with that one i was able to save the tip and forge a mini handle. being 2" over all it is glass hard. I tend to pre=sharpen before hard quenching, and so while forging heat took place again, I never did more than re-quench.

That little knife will slice 9/16" elk neck like it was butter on a hot day. Everyone always tells me I am lyin' thru my teeth about that elk neck, but I still have some. I use it for moc boot soles and need a electric drill to make holes for the sewwing! I wore out the boots that I made in 10 years, but it took walking in wet concrete to kill em.

One day I need to build new winter moc boots too.

 

[Macmac]

Oh geeze.. Doc I just realized which thread I was on... sorry 'bout that.

 

[7X57chilmau]

Mac,

Here we are hijacking again .... Oh, well, at least Doc's question was answered some time ago....

That is in fact the basic style of most of my blades that I intend as real users (let's face it, a dagger is cool, but hardly utilitarian....). I've not tried to make one with integral fire steel, but the thought has occurred to me. I tried with an existing knife's handle, but of course, the handle temper is far too soft for sparking well. My larger blades are made of 5160 too, so I'm not sure if that will spark well (chrome content and all). The 1085 my small blades are made of sure does!

Its something I've been meaning to try....

J

 

[bikerdoc]

No gentlemen there was no hijack -you just took it to a higher level of steel discusion
thanks
doc

 

[theotherwaldo]

Yeah theotherwaldo , no hair on our knuckels eh? ;D

No, indeed, the heat from the forge takes care of that in a hurry!

By the way, the very first new knife that I ever owned looked exactly like the one shown by the OP. It was a souvenir of the Oregon Caves. I loved that knife.

 

[JShirley]

Chris,

That Imperial is beautiful. Reminds me a bit of the shape of my John Greco.

John