Can you tell me what this is?

[fatelk]

I have some shells I got at a gun show many years ago. I thought they looked interesting but had no idea what they were for, still don't. The headstamp says REM-UMC 38 SPL with white paint over it. The guy I got them from said they were some kind of delayed ignition cartridge to help train you not to flinch. Most definitely not true.

The projectile is aluminum and has a small bump on the tip that looks like a firing pin. Like an idiot I put one in my Dan Wesson .357 and pulled the trigger. There was a slight delay and a "poof", the aluminum bullet lodged in the forcing cone and there was red flames coming out of the cylinder, like phosphorous or something. No damage was done to the revolver but I had to take it apart to get the projectile out. As you can see in the photo, this was never meant for a firearm. I'm thinking artillery or some such thing. The little brass parts were in the shell. The brass and aluminum parts are all precision machined.

Neatly printed on the side of the case is "BER-LOT 1 DEC. 59 ORDCO B-4635-3" I searched the net exhaustively and the only reference I could find regarding ORDCO 1959 was some company that made parts for the Apollo space program.

This has been a mystery to me for years. They seem to be some sort of specialized cartridge not meant for a firearm. Does anyone here have any idea what the purpose of these might have been?

 

[Sindawe]

Like an idiot I put one in my Dan Wesson .357 and pulled the trigger. There was a slight delay and a "poof", the aluminum bullet lodged in the forcing cone and there was red flames coming out of the cylinder, like phosphorous or something.

BWAHAHAHAHA. Your words, not mine. But rather true I think. Of course, we have those "Blonde Moments" occasionally.

Really, I have no idea what it is. But I'd hazard a guess thats its some sort of grenade lanching round.

 

[gunsmith]

Wow!

I am glad your revolver is OK

 

[Wes Janson]

Definitely weird...I hope someone here can clear up this mystery, because now I'm really curious.

 

[esheato]

You got my attention. I'm curious what they are also.

Ed

 

[rudolf]

ORDCO 1959 was some company that made parts for the Apollo space program.

Congratulations, you just fired the last remaining prototype of the ignition system of the first experimental apollo moon landing ferry.
It would have brought you one million $ on ebay.

Ok, just kidding

 

[Trueno]

Did the "aluminum projectile" burn? If so, then it is/was probably magnesium. If not, then my guess would be a "signal round" - ie: tracer round used to signal rescue teams.

t

 

[Glockfan.45]

Check out Remington UMCs industrial applications. Some ammo manufacturers make some stange loads for industrial use. I have a 8 gauge slug type round from Winchester that is used to blast slag out of huge vats at foundries.

 

[doubleg]

Maybe it's a type primer for explosives?

 

[bill in IN]

Sounds like a flare round. Meant for signalling.

 

[nramember2]

It sounds like a primer round for some kind of artillery piece.

 

[SDC]

The construction and description sound like it's definitely a flare or marking round of some type.

 

[kb2iaw]

un known round ?

I cant be positive but...It looks like a round fired from a smooth bore rifel on ships for high line pourposes (sp) a single shot rifel type of smooth bore in wich a bronze rod was inserted and a nylon line called (shot line ) was attached and fired over the bow of the ship alongside ,after which another line was tied on and retrived and so on for at sea transfers .?
I always thought they were .45 cal ...but i could be mistaken ...torpedoman usn ret .

 

[robert garner]

I just cant believe nobody

clewed the dude on Zombie rounds!!

 

[fatelk]

The aluminum projectile did not burn, it just kind of popped out and lodged in the barrel. Definitely low velocity, which makes me think it was perhaps intended to strike something else and set it off with the protruding bump on the tip. Then there's the phosphorous glowing and burning behind it out of the case and the precision machined brass pieces left in the case??? Very bizarre.

What I remember reading about this Ordco company and the Apollo program was that they worked on a parachute system of some kind and some sort of defective line cutters.

www.astronautix.com/details/apo16860.htm
"1965 Jan 21 - Nation: USA.
Apollo dual drogue parachutes in drop test Program: Apollo. Spacecraft: Apollo CSM."

"In the course of this drop, six of the 12 cutters, which sever the reefing lines on the main parachutes, failed. This failure, together with another cutter malfunction during the previous month, signaled an intensive investigation at Ordco, the cutter manufacturer. Qualification of the severing device was thereby delayed."

I've always thought it was a stretch to connect these with a space program, but I've never been able to figure out any other logical purpose for them. The date fits as the other info I found says this company was working on the program in 1959. The idea is intrigueing but very speculative.

I actually expect someone to post here soon something along the lines of "Yea those are fuses for the 123mm flare launching distress signal cannon for the XYZ class luxury yacht, quite common. I've got a drawer full of them, use them for fishing sinkers."

By the way, I didn't shoot the last one.

There also remains the possiblity that I stumbled on the last remaining box of "Alien Zapper" rounds from a top secret "Save the World" project. Maybe I shouldn't have posted this on the internet.

Gotta go, someone's at the door. Black SUV- looks like Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones in suits and shades. Wonder what they want?

 

[Headless]

put one in a vice and hit the primer with a hammer & nail imo. You'll be much better able to observe the effects. bwahahaha.

 

[rockstar.esq]

Does anyone remember the movie "Flight of the Phoneix"? Weren't there some cartridge shaped devices that they used to start the engines? Seems like the ones in the movie were 12G but it leads me to wonder if these things are intended for something similar. That still wouldn't explain the brass bits in the case plus the lack of powder. I wonder if they're intended for somekind of underwater application? Perhaps the charge for a harpoon of some kind. Don't know but it's really interesting all the same.

 

[cuervo]

Have you tried posting on any of the cartridge collectors forums such as:

http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=f0258af5723f0c510bf2ef97c68d31ca

 

[Jim K]

Please be careful. Firing strange cartridges could do more than damage your gun. Some of those "tool" rounds, like cutters, use hardened steel "bullets" that will convert a revolver to a smoothbore very quickly; some other stuff has pressures that would blow a revolver to pieces.

Others are even more dangerous. The CIA had .30-'06 and .38 Special rounds made with bullets that contained crystallized botulis toxin and just enough PETN to blow it all over a room. The idea was that a round fired into a room where bad guys were meeting would take them all out. About the time they were congratulating themselves on having been missed, they would begin to die in agony. FWIW, the CIA is "sure" that none of those rounds got away. Needless to say, firing off one of those in your home would not be a good idea.

Aircraft engine starter cartridges were around for a long time, but I don't think they are used any more, or that modern engines have the means of accommodating them.

Jim

 

[rust collector]

No idea, but I think I see a catalog number written on the box, as well as 1.5 sec delay and color code info. Have you googled the number? with 38 cal?
Great mystery. Good luck!

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I could tell you, but then I would have to kill you

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I don't have any better ideas than the others. I would google all the markings on them and see if that gives any more info. In the mean time I wouldn't shoot anymore of them.

 

[fatelk]

I googled anything and everything, several times in every combination I could think of, all to no avail. I definitely would never consider firing another one of them, considering my experience with the first one.

Cuervo, thanks for the link. I will try them for sure. There has to be someone that has seen one before.

 

[Detritus]

Does anyone remember the movie "Flight of the Phoneix"? Weren't there some cartridge shaped devices that they used to start the engines?

starter cartridges tend to be made to produce what can only be decribed as "large volumes of rapidly expanding gas, but not so fast as to rupture anything in a good engine" ie slower burning black powder for things like the C-82 Packet used in "Flight of the phoenix" (though i think teh randy quaid version used a C-119), and what i have heard described as "a mix of rocket fuel and asphault" for certain later designs like the republic F-105.

due to their intended application, (re)starting a large sometimes recalcitrant engine in locales/situations where full ground support (spelled GPU carts or similar) is unavailable, it is unlikely that any were made in a size much smaller than say a shotgun shell. also the "projectile bits" of the rounds in question, and the lack of "copious amounts of smoke" speak to these not being start cartridges.

Aircraft engine starter cartridges were around for a long time, but I don't think they are used any more

Speaking only of here in the states as long as certain aircraft continue to be carried on the civil register, starter cartridges will continue in use. some aircraft designed and built in the late 40's thru early 60's had no provision for starting WITHOUT the cartridge. most if not all of the planes in question, and for certain ALL of those designed without other provision for startup, are "warbirds" (older surplused military planes now on civil register) like the DeHavilland Venom, in fact the owner of the first Venom to be flown here in the states at least used to use the Cartridge start as part of his airshow routine, due to how "impressive" the start can be to onlookers.

but i do beleive you're right in that no new designs have come into being that use cartridge starters. lighter weight, built in, mechanical/electric start systems having made the cartridges obsolete and overly dangerous in comparison.

 

[MikeG]

If I remember correctly, the old aircraft tow targets used a special .38 Spl cartridge to cut the tow line and discard the dart-like target. The nib on your round might have actuated a blade to sever the tow-line.