Cane was no good there!

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Carl Levitian

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I love canes/walking sticks. I've made no bones about it in past posts, and consider a knife a poor third rate weapon at best for self defense.

Yesterday morning I changed my mind.

I got up early to get my oil changed in my car by a buddy who has his own shop. Supposed to get there abut 9:30ish, so I left the house early so I'd have time to go by Panera Bread for a bagel and coffee. No probelmo.

I go in and get my breakfast and go sit down by a little table at the front window, just have taken my first bite of a nice everything bagel with cream cheese, when the kid comes up to me. I'd seen her with her mother in back of me in line, but gave them no thought. Little blond haired girl about 10ish. She looks at me and yells 'Moooove!"

I'm taken a bit aback, so I look at her and ask "I beg your pardon?"

The mother comes up with a tray of stuff and tells me she's sorry, but they always sit at that table because it's by a window and her daughter likes to look out while they eat. She's nice about it, but no apology or excuse me. Just the explanation and she stands there expecting me to move. I finish chewing the bite of bagel and tell her that I'M sorry, but I'm sitting here at present and eating MY breakfast, and maybe this would be a good time for her overindulged offspring to learn some manners.

She gets huffy with me telling me since we're all supposed to be grownups here, what would it be such a big deal for me to just move to another table. I sit there and look at her, not even believing what I'm hearing. This spoiled yuppie female offspring of a dog is demanding I move to accommodate her spoiled brat of a daughter. I of course refuse and tell her to just go away.

The little girl tells her dear mommy to make me move, but the mommy tells her she can't, and will have to have daddy handle this. I'm on my second mouthful of bagal, and I catch this. She sits down at another table and they start eating, and mommy breaks out her cell phone and makes a call. Talks quietly for a moment, smiles and hangs up.

Now I'm 69 years old this month, and I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I gather she's called 'daddy' whoever that is, and she's sitting there with this Cheshire cat smile that makes me a bit mad. I didn't have long to wait.

I knew it was daddy when he pulled into the parking lot. Had to be. Huge shiny black Ford Expedition with jacked up suspension, big macho tires that will never see off pavement use in suburban Maryland. Big black steel grill guard and light guards, roof bar with half a dozen off road lights mounted. Pulls right up in the fire lane outside the front door and parks illegally, and a big guy gets out.

No, that's not really right. A big guy would be a double for Attila the Hun. This guy looks like the real Conan The Barbarian like Arnold wishes he was. At least 6' 4", and close to 300 pounds if he was a pound. Stands there in a warm up outfit and peels off the jacket so he's showing off the bulging biceps and deltoids. I admit at this point I should have just run for the door at the opposite end of the eatery, but with a bum wheel under me I don't run so good. I look at my cane, and I realize it's a joke in this one instance. I'm all of 5' 9" and 160 pounds, and if I try to use a cane on this guy, he's gonna stick it where the sun never shines, before he beats me to death. As he comes in the front door with that muscle bound arms out to the sides strut, I take out my Opinel, and hold it in my hand down by my plate semi-out of sight.

At this point I'm going a gut instinct here. This guy is coming like he means a good rough up business, and I'm not going to play that game. Like I said, not really thinking abut it, just going on gut level guessing.

He see's his wifey and spoiled brat of a kid and goes over to them. Kid yells and points at me "That's the man who wouldn't move, Daddy!" Daddy the barbarian looks at his wife and she tells him I insulted them in addition to not moving out of their way, and he starts in my direction with that strut.

By this time people are staring, and there's an audience, but muscles the brainless doesn't seem to notice or care as he starts towards me and actually says loud enough for witnesses to later tell police, "You're in for a good --- kicking now you grey bearded old ----!"

I admit I'm scared. Like I said, this guy is a huge gym body builder type, and I just know with my cane I stand no chance at all. I open my Opinel and hold it close to my right side as I stand up, wondering if I can hurt him enough to stop him before he kills me. Then a weird thing happens.

He stops dead in his tracks.

He's looking at the knife with kind a wariness. Not scared, but wary, and he stays out of range of me. He tries giving me a hard stare, but I'm staying where I am in the corner by my table and the wall. Right then I liked a corner. Then he says the most stupid and insane thing I ever heard a grown man say. He tells me to "Put that knife down and fight like a man!"

I stare at him in amazement. Me; kind of skinny 160 pound 5 foot 9 guy, him massive 6' 4 or so 275 to 300 pound guy, and he's talking fair fight after telling me I'm gonna get a --- kicking?

I just want to eat my bagel and go get my Toyota's oil changed, and now I'm in a stare off with this guy who looks like he can tear me in two like a phone book. I tried to reason with him. I tell him "What you think is going to happen here isn't. I'm not going to let you beat me up to prove to your wife and kid how tough you are. What is going to happen here is if you assault me, I'm going to spread your guts all over this floor. You'll get me, but you're going to die doing it."

He still stares at me, and I can't tell if he's impressed at all with my little speech, and I see that he really doesn't know what to do. He doesn't want to back down, but he's not willing to risk the knife. Then I hear the police sirens coming closer and he backs off trying to look nonchalant, and he tells his wife he'd better go. Cops pull up in front, and he kind of tries to look casual sitting down by his wife and kid, I put the Opinel down on the table and step away from it. . The manager and some other people start telling the cops what happened and they take me aside and talk to me, while interviewing others. Takes about 45 minutes, but the police sort it out, while he's saying I pulled a knife on him and trying to turn it around. Didn't work, too many witnesses too close and saw and heard everything. Got even better when the cops check out my VA hospital ID and see I'm a 50% disabled vet. Cop looks at my knife and tells me to put it back in my pocket. Big guy asks why they let me get away with having a knife. By this time things are not going to good for daddy the barbarian, and while all this was going on, another cop outside puts a 250 dollar ticket on his truck for parking in a fire lane.

Big guy goes on a yelling spree. Yells they can't ticket his truck, they can't let me go after I pulled a knife, this and that. Finally three of the biggest cops sort of surround him and one cop puts a finger in his face and yells back. Tells him not to tell him what they can't do, and has he ever heard of disparity of force in self defense, and how he'd been attempting to assault a disabled veteran, and then they cuff him and arrest him. Takes 4 cops to cuff him and they go to the floor doing it, but they did it. That's when one cop told him he's going to pay 250 dollars for the fire lane parking spot. Wifey and brat staring in shock, but quiet as mice. As they put him a cruiser and take him away, I finally get to finish my bagel. Cops tell me I'll be notified of the court date.

Whole thing ended anti-climatic. Looking back on it, I know certain as the sun's gonna rise in the East tomorrow morning, if I'd tried to defend myself with a stick, he'd have taken me apart. But when I came up with a knife, he stopped in his tracks. I don't know if 1. He was smarter than he looked, or 2. He'd seen somebody sliced up before and knew what a sharp knife could do to soft tissue. Certainly I used no Excalibur, just a wood handle Opinel number 8. But he didn't like having to deal with it.

I now know what they mean by a layered defense. I'm not going to make that mistake again, and discount a knife so quick. From now on I will carry a knife for just in case a cane won't work.

But the one thing that has been going through my mind in the last 24 hours thinking about it, has been how the sight of a knife in my hand stopped this huge guy cold. The knife had a whole different effect than a walking stick/cane would have had. Big as he was, he didn't want any part of it.

Something to think about.
 
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Glad everything worked out well for you. You were in a situation that I am sure no one here would envy, you handled yourself very well and came out on top.

On another note, it sure is a shame how people treat elders these days. I could never fathom speaking to any of my grandparents that way, or anyone for that matter. I really wonder what is in their head that makes them think it is okay to treat another human being the way those people treated you. The brat is almost forgivable, and her mother should have issued a sheepish apology and moved on, not call for her bully of a husband to come to try to intimidate you. Additionally, daddy is lucky that he didn't have an encounter with someone that is not as cool headed as you are or he might have ended up with his guts on the floor or a few holes in him.
 
This is a good post. I don't really blame you for standing your ground to some extent. I live by ADEE and I'm not sure exactly what you said to the lady, but I can think of plenty of examples where standing your ground is just the only option.

I like it, and it's a good story too.
 
Good job. Sure, you will get trashed by some for not running away from a mindless gronk summoned by a spoiled brat but I commend you for letting a little light into their snobby lives.
 
Glad you made it out OK Carl.

Your coolness under fire is impressive.
 
Give me age, cunning, and a big pair, over muscle bound, entitled, youth.

Score one for us, none for him. Fight fair indeed! I got your fair over here as they say in New Jersey.

Might have been a thought to start drooling on the table and talking gibberish when dealing with Mamma brat. What a hoot that would have been.

Glad your Ok.
 
Holy ----, gave me chills reading that. Hell that could have been me sitting there. I'll be gripping my EDC a little tighter for a while.

But the lesson I take from that is, always have options. Encounters vary a lot, and some weapons are better for some and not others.

I have noticed one thing over the years and I'm sure many of you will agree. While actually putting blade to flesh has a fair share of negatives, there's no denying the sight of a blade can convince a retreat.
 
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Good thread. I was in a similar situation two Halloweens ago. For whatever reason a group of drunk college kids shoved me and tried picking a fight with me as I was walking home alone. A pocketknife can be incredibly intimidating, even when you're outnumbered. It got me home safe that night.
 
Good post, hope it never happens again, and don't count on getting the same outcome on another day if it does. The next guy (I hope there isn't one) might not be intimidated by a knife. I agree with having options, the more the better. uncivilized people are all around us.
 
It hasn't been mentioned but attitude is EVERYTHING in these situations. You have to sell them the idea that you are calm, Can and Will use that knife and may have done so before. If you can do project that in the attacker's mind, that alone can defuse the situation.

I have faced multiple attackers alone and made them believe I was not only willing to take both of them on but might even enjoy it. They backed down and left. I was real glad of that as they could have easily totally trashed me.

I have also seen these situations defused with humor. That one is a bit tougher though `cause not everyone has that kind of a sense of humor. Example:

My brother was racing dirt track modified class one night and tangled up with another car on the track. When they came in the pits, Tommy and the other guy jumped out of their cars and headed toward each other and they met there in the pit road with the crews from both cars surounding them.

Tommy stared right into the guys Chest and asked what his problem was.
The other driver said "I'm gonna kick your (donkey)!"
Tommy: "You think you can kick my (donkey)?"
Driver: "I KNOW I can kick your (donkey)!"
Tommy "Well... I guess there ain't no sense in us fighting then is there?" and walked off.

The other guy just stood there for a few seconds, laughed and went back to his pits.
 
This guys behavior is a bloody shame. I've actually sat near the "old guys" in restruants who are eating alone and struck up conversations before. Granted, I probably shouldn't, as I don't really look that good. My hair is usually a mess, my face needing a shave, and my hands are chewed up and grimy from working on a roof, or working on a car all day. Not to mention how dirty my clothes are from this work.

I can usually tell when they want left alone, or if they are willing to have a conversation though. It's often very hard to overcome the "distrust of strangers" that was so ingrained into my upbringing. I could never be so rude to anyone, let alone the elderly or infirm. If i see a veteran hat, or army ink, I'm stepping out of that guys way and holding doors for him.
 
Wow, "High Noon" at Panera. You did the right thing and I'm glad that it turned out the way that it did. Seems like the best possible outcome. You did everyone a favor by shutting down this guy's bullying. You even did him a favor by teaching him a lesson before he met someone who would have reacted with less restraint than you.

I wish you lived closer, I'd be honored to buy you a bagel to say "Thanks!"
 
Teaching Lessons

You even did him a favor by teaching him a lesson before he met someone who would have reacted with less restraint than you.

Well, I've found that you can teach a lesson, but that don't mean the other guy will learn a lesson.

Sometimes a lesson has to be taught more than once.

People who are convinced of their own "rightness" and entitlement often view such events as anomalies, and go right back to their standard patterns of conduct. For such people, it can take a kind of "two-by-four" event. Sometimes it's that 5th speeding ticket, standing in front of the judge as he asks if you're ready to take a whole year's vacation from driving. Sometimes it's getting so badly beaten that the ER personnel debate whether you go to ICU or just a regular room with extra attention. Sometimes it's burying a loved one.

Some guys are just slow learners.

With a little luck, the lesson that gets it done isn't too expensive or traumatic. With some guys, though, that's pretty much what it takes.

Bullies seldom take the cheap way to enlightenment.

 
"Give me age, cunning, and a big pair, over muscle bound, entitled, youth."



You left one out doc, Desperation!

I was scared to death of this big guy, and I admit that if I had two good legs under me, I may have just cleared off out the side door as he was coming in the front. But I don't run so well, certainly not going to outrun some 28 to 30 year old. It was the cornered rat syndrome. Cat corners a rat, even a rat will rear up to try to bite back. All I had going for me was the Opinel, and my making this guy very clear on that I know I'm no contest, and I may die of brain damage after he hits me in the noggin, but by the time my family have to make the decision to shut off the ventilator, he'll already be in the ground. That's all you have left as a senior citizen in a corner. We're already close to the end, may as well take him with me for the trip. Us seniors may only have 5 or 6 years to loose. He has most of his.

Never back someone into a corner who has very little to loose. Maybe that's why a lot of us old farts are curmudgeons walking around in an angry mood. We're so much closer to the end than the beginning, we're mad about it.
 
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I hope he gets jail time. Some people just don't get it and never will. I actually feel bad for the girl to have two dingbats for parents.
 
I only wish i had there. The he would hav had to go though me. My daddy would have kicked my (donkey) if i had not stood up for anyone in that sitting.
 
Great outcome--and great description of the event, Carl. I was riveted.

I can only hope that this thug and his family learned a little lesson about civility.
 
I carried very sharp, high quality knives for many years. Now I have a CHL and leave the knives at home. A master knife fighter taught me that if you attack correctly with your blade, it unfortunately leaves defensive type wounds on the bad guy and it will be hard to PROVE that you weren't the aggressor.

The forum moderator helped me get up to speed on your experience and position on using canes and sticks as defensive weapons and I confess ignorance on that. My recommendation is still with the Cane Master over the knife because of the defensive wounds caused by the correct use of the blade.

As to the situation.......first I am thankful that you were not injured. Second......why the heck didn't you leave? I have MA training, a CHL and weigh in at 6'1" and 270 pounds. I would have been gone. Is that cowardly? Hell no! The world is different now and you need to adapt to it to survive.

I fought over a space in the parking lot of a drug hangout in Tulsa and I ended up fighting 4 very large men. I survived by knocking two out of the fight with kicks and backfists and that ugly sight took the fight out of the two I hit first. In those days, it was the thing to do to stand your ground and fight...............over a durned parking space!

It's not that way now. If you lost, your butt would be in a hospital or a morgue. If you cut him enough to take the fight out of him, the stories would suddenly change and you'd go to prison for aggravated assault or ADW. You were VERY lucky to be able to use a blade for intimidation. Please don't try that again!

I worked in a Texas prison and the place was packed with men who stood up just like you and I did and paid the price by sacrificing years of their lives. If you defended yourself against the charges, the process would lighten you up about $20,000. THERE IS NO WAY TO WIN THE FIGHT!

Leave, apologize, run, or use another other way out of the conflict.

Flash
 
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Geez, Carl, sounds like an exciting morning. Even though everything turned out okay, I still wish that you lived in a more gun friendly state so you could carry something a little more, well, persuasive. I know a gun isn't a magic talisman, but it has to make some of these goofballs stop and think for a moment. Sounds like he may have been suffering a little 'roid rage, too.
 
jeez Carl; ua go into a store for a bite to eat and you almost end up on the menu
they rather sucked all the joy out of the enviornment.

good how you handled it and the timing of the calvery
sad that the 'entitlement' generation is raising their own in their own image

your store reads like you knew how things were lining up and had made your decisions.
and were of a mind to follow through. he knew that.
be well
 
Glad to hear things worked out in your favor Carl !!!!

I am now in my 50s --- "back in the day" , I used to like to get involved , at times when I should not have. I have been shot twice { both times .22rf } , stabbed/slashed four different times , been hit with pool cues , ball bats , ast. improvised clubs , metal and flesh knuckles, and have had my asse kicked at least once for every year I am old !!!!


With that being said ---- you are 100% correct to rethink a layered defense --- I have seen with my own eyes , some guys will laugh in your face if you pull a impact weapon on them , thinking that they can close in and MAYBE get hit only once. I've also seen where a firearm DID NOT deter the person for whatever reason.

However ---- I have seen where a 3 or 4 inch blade DID stop the offender BEFORE it had to be used on them. At LESS then arms length away , myself and most people would rather face a club or even a firearm then a edged weapon.

Let me add just how LUCKY you were that there were other people around then just the jerk, his wife and brat. ---- I'm sure you are aware of how it could have ended without other people telling the police the truth.

The only thing I think you could have done was when you saw the guy get out of his car and take off his shirt/coat as he came in ---- dial 911 and lay the phone on the table so as to have "your side" recorded.

Stay safe and PLAY NICE {LOL} ------- GF123
 
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