I have now made or acquired several cannons. It seems that any and every source I look into gives charge amount for Cannon powder and 2F. I know 4F expands much quicker then Cannon Powder. If any of you much more knowledgeable folks would explain,why should I not just use 4f in smaller quantities? Especially since it prices out so much better in volume and shiping. Thanks, CANNONMAN
Cannon powder, 1F, 2F, 3F, 4F..., What's the difference?
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forward observer
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The smaller the granulation, the faster the powder burns. The faster the powder burns, the greater pressures are. Basically, by using a fine granulation you are increasing the pressures to unsafe levels. Decreasing the amount used creates several new issues.
You now have a charge that does not fill the chamber of the weapon and the air space will cause the powder to even burn faster once again increasing pressure levels. It tends to create a situation where the ball becomes an obstruction in the barrel rather than the projectile.
That may not be the most scientific explanation, but that is how it was explained to me. the main point is that fine grain powder simply does not have the proper burning curve for a large chamber and thus creates excessive and therefore dangerous pressures. Using less by guesswork is not a viable solution.
Follow the long established procedures and be safe!
Anybody--feel free to explain this better or add to it.
You now have a charge that does not fill the chamber of the weapon and the air space will cause the powder to even burn faster once again increasing pressure levels. It tends to create a situation where the ball becomes an obstruction in the barrel rather than the projectile.
That may not be the most scientific explanation, but that is how it was explained to me. the main point is that fine grain powder simply does not have the proper burning curve for a large chamber and thus creates excessive and therefore dangerous pressures. Using less by guesswork is not a viable solution.
Follow the long established procedures and be safe!
Anybody--feel free to explain this better or add to it.
EljaySL
Member
I think you got the gist but let's emphasize the main point which is that if he gets it wrong he's just made a pipe bomb. A big one. Which will kill him and any loved ones nearby. Shrapnel goes way further than you might think, too.
I've never heard of anybody successfully using 4F in anything larger than a .31 revolver.
Do black powder ratios exist?
The question I am trying to ask is something like, "Is one unit of 4F equal to 4 units of cannon powder?" Or are there charts of units of powder to projectile? Similar to what you find in loading for pistol or rifle cartridges? Thanks to anyone reading this!
The question I am trying to ask is something like, "Is one unit of 4F equal to 4 units of cannon powder?" Or are there charts of units of powder to projectile? Similar to what you find in loading for pistol or rifle cartridges? Thanks to anyone reading this!
forward observer
Member
No--one unit of 4F is not equal to 4 units of 1F. Those designations are not designed to directly measure burn rates or relative explosive power of each type to the other.
The F or Fg is short for "fine" or "fineness" of granulation of the powder. It is a size measurement of the granular units of powder--not to be confused with grains, which is a weight measurement.
I found this approximation of the sizes for each in one of my old books. As you can see there is a min and a max for each.
1Fg.... .047"-.063"
1 1/2Fg... .035"-.054"
2Fg... .026"-.054"
3Fg... .020"-.034"
4Fg.... .009"-.020"
Obviously, the size of the granule affects the burn rate, but I have never seen any charts designed to suggest that one substitute one granulation of black powder for another by changing the amount used---mainly because it is unsafe--the point being that you do not want to use a fine powder with a high burn rate in a large bore.
I will repeat again that reducing the amount of this fine powder does not counter the problem because it creates additional safety issues.
One of the caveats of black powder is that you do not want excessive space in the chamber of any weapon that uses it. Fine powder creates a very large initial pressure spike, which along with excessive airspace behind the projectile tends to turn a larger bore cannon into a pipe bomb.
Black powder is a totally different proposition from smokeless. It is simply a mechanical mixture of sulfur, potassium nitrate, and charcoal. Once the right combination of those ingredients was decided on, its manufacture hasn't changed drastically for 100's of years.
On the other hand, smokeless is a complex chemical compound with wide variety of manufacturing options--thus all the reams of load data that gets published every year for hand loaders.
Users of black powder have been following the same general guidelines for many centuries for a reason and that reason is that it is simply unsafe to do otherwise.
Here's a link to a Wikipedia article on black powder. It's worth a read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder
Cheers
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Of course, when one loads with black powder, the case is loaded such that the bullet, when seated, compresses the powder. It seems like, to me, that when a mass that is larger, with more air space in between like objects, especially if potentially brittle (e.g, like Fg powder) is compressed, it would fracture in multiple places in order to fill the voids. If this were to occur, the size of the particles will be decreased, and it would be more like, and act more like, smaller granulated powder, such as FFg or FFFg. Comments?
alsaqr
Member
Black powder a mechanical mixture that is incorporated by the application of pressure by heavy wheels in a dangerous milling process. The resulting mill cake is then broken up and the grains sifted. The grains are polished in big wooden barrels and coated with graphite. The graphite acts as a burn rate inhibitor and it lessens the danger caused by static electricity.
With the exception of Swiss, today's black powder is generally inferior to that of the late 1800s.
Black blasting powder is not coated and it contains more fines.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17087934/Black-Powder-Grades
With the exception of Swiss, today's black powder is generally inferior to that of the late 1800s.
Black blasting powder is not coated and it contains more fines.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17087934/Black-Powder-Grades
MIOkie
Member
Size Matters...
CANNONMAN,
I find your thread about cannons and the proper propellant very interesting.
You mentioned having several of them and I was wondering just how big these things are.
What is the bore size and how heavy are the projectiles..?
That info can have a bearing on the required granulation.
CANNONMAN,
I find your thread about cannons and the proper propellant very interesting.
You mentioned having several of them and I was wondering just how big these things are.
What is the bore size and how heavy are the projectiles..?
That info can have a bearing on the required granulation.
"I've never heard of anybody successfully using 4F in anything larger than a .31 revolver."
A fellow had researched CW pistol cartridges and found that the Hazards Pistol Powder used was about 4F and as energetic as 4F Swiss. They did this as the long heavy conicals being used took up much of the powder capacity.
This fellow allowed for the copying and spreading of his research, but as it's very long I'd need to email it, which I'd be happy to do. Otherwise, if you are a member of the Yahoo Percussion Pistol Group you can view it there.
I've copied 3 pieces of his work, and I'd send all 3, though not all of it is necessarily pertinent.
A fellow had researched CW pistol cartridges and found that the Hazards Pistol Powder used was about 4F and as energetic as 4F Swiss. They did this as the long heavy conicals being used took up much of the powder capacity.
This fellow allowed for the copying and spreading of his research, but as it's very long I'd need to email it, which I'd be happy to do. Otherwise, if you are a member of the Yahoo Percussion Pistol Group you can view it there.
I've copied 3 pieces of his work, and I'd send all 3, though not all of it is necessarily pertinent.
I've read that the relationship between one grade and another is about 20%. Basically, 48 grains of FFFg is equivalent to 60 grains of FFg. N-SSA rifle shooters often use the substitution above in Springfield and Enfield original and repro rifles.
However, this ratio does not apply over more than one grade. 38 grains of FFFFg does NOT equal 60 grains of FFg.
I think that in cannons, and the amount of powder they're burning, you should really understand the forces at play before you start messing around. It's one thing when you working with 15 grains of powder in a pistol, and 2 lbs of powder in a 12 pounder cannon.
Good luck!
-John
However, this ratio does not apply over more than one grade. 38 grains of FFFFg does NOT equal 60 grains of FFg.
I think that in cannons, and the amount of powder they're burning, you should really understand the forces at play before you start messing around. It's one thing when you working with 15 grains of powder in a pistol, and 2 lbs of powder in a 12 pounder cannon.
Good luck!
-John
Cannon size's in question
My collection ranges from the miniature desk top which sells for around $30 and up to a 6' with a 3" bore. I have several 1/2", 1" and 2" and a couple of golf ball mortars. My query into black powder propellants began as the directions for the "desk top" included cannon powder and 1F. Then the mortar compounded the issue as it seemed there was no way to increase the pressure to propel the golf ball. The mortars have a "charge pocket" of 3/4" and 1". These are made of 3 1/2" hydraulic rams. Attempting to increase the amount of powder, regardless of type proved to be fruitless. More powder and you find unburnt propellent. This I believe because the shortness of bore does not allow a full combustion. This problem is not the same for the longer barrels. However, as several of you have cautioned, I do NOT wish to make a "pipe bomb". The 1/2", 1" shoot ball bearings. The larger have molds for lead. They are in the 2lb to 4lb range. I have yet to shoot anything but wadding in the larger cannons. Thanks to all for your advice, comments and safety concerns. CANNONMAN
My collection ranges from the miniature desk top which sells for around $30 and up to a 6' with a 3" bore. I have several 1/2", 1" and 2" and a couple of golf ball mortars. My query into black powder propellants began as the directions for the "desk top" included cannon powder and 1F. Then the mortar compounded the issue as it seemed there was no way to increase the pressure to propel the golf ball. The mortars have a "charge pocket" of 3/4" and 1". These are made of 3 1/2" hydraulic rams. Attempting to increase the amount of powder, regardless of type proved to be fruitless. More powder and you find unburnt propellent. This I believe because the shortness of bore does not allow a full combustion. This problem is not the same for the longer barrels. However, as several of you have cautioned, I do NOT wish to make a "pipe bomb". The 1/2", 1" shoot ball bearings. The larger have molds for lead. They are in the 2lb to 4lb range. I have yet to shoot anything but wadding in the larger cannons. Thanks to all for your advice, comments and safety concerns. CANNONMAN
MIOkie
Member
Now THAT is some collection...!
Your mortar dilemma exceeds my limited scope of experience.
I'm eager to see what our more knowledgeable members have to say.
Just might have to invest in some of my own artillery. Sounds like a lot of fun.
Your mortar dilemma exceeds my limited scope of experience.
I'm eager to see what our more knowledgeable members have to say.
Just might have to invest in some of my own artillery. Sounds like a lot of fun.
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